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Planning and the legal system in Ireland

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,151 ✭✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Will the lower courts reasoning extend to Windfarm construction destroying climate buffering and carbon sequestering peatlands I wonder?? So far the Irish state does not have a good record on such things with BNM in particular targetting such areas despite their climate, biodiversity etc. importance



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,300 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I think this is being pursued as a test-case, not because ACP thinks it can win. The judge’s ruling will hopefully clarify some other points of law around ACP’s obligations in this area, and that certainty is good to have for the future. Doubt over legal matters delays projects, because the inspectors have to get legal opinion, which can take time if there’s no definitive ruling in place



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭dmakc


    I doubt they'd be so logical.

    Statkraft brought this on themselves. CDP's set guidelines for this reason, plenty of areas open to consideration across the country but Statkraft chose one that literally wasn't, and are now crying all the way up to the high courts, (as these profiteering developers tend to). They'd pierce through your grandparents grave with a turbine if they could, because... climate...

    ACP can still refuse, even with heavier consideration to climate plan.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,315 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    The judge in his ruling was quite clear that ACP will still be the decision taker on this, and that they would have ample leeway to consider any impacts. In other words, it's not carte blanche to greenlight covering all of Wexford with Solar panels, or to ignore basic engineering principles like in Derrybrien.

    Ah, but as the judge pointed out, if we've got binding emissions targets, and the CDPs don't have enough areas zoned to meet those targets, then should the CDPs take precedence over the targets? It's within the remit of ACP to greenlight a project that contravenes a CDP, so Statkraft were well within their rights to seek permission.

    The CDP isn't the be all and end all of planning that some people would have you believe, with some people trying to imply that any project that contravenes the CDP as being outside "proper planning and sustainable development". This is a point that the Supreme Court Justices also asked about.

    The county development plans as they are currently written will result in us not hitting our emissions targets, something that every major party in Ireland voted for. Is that "proper planning and sustainable development"? Do the development plans set by local councillors override the laws decided by our national politicians?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Support for the position that CDP's don't take precedence is the instruction in recent days from the Minister to local authorities to increase the amount of land zoned for housing.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭dmakc


    Having binding targets does not make any area of a private developer's choosing bound to approval. Why have any planning authorities in that case? Laois have enough areas open to wind including brownfield, Statkraft didn't stick to them.

    The "do nothing" scenario here does not equate to missing 2030 targets. Sustainable development is not literally tied to sustainable energy, it considers many more aspects including an area's capacity to absorb such infrastructure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭dmakc


    Isn't that just updating the CDP, therefore remaining relevant? They're not going against it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is one way of looking at it, but if your case for 1,000 homes contrary to the CDP was in front of ACP next week, wouldn't you be arguing that ACP should overrule the CDP.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭dmakc


    Would depend if my application was for a site confirmed for rezoning, in that case yes.

    This situation is a different matter altogether, given no retrospective update to the Laois CDP on wind



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,315 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Having land zoned for windfarms doe not automatically mean that wind farms are going to be developed there, you still need to buy/lease the land, and a lot of land owners won't no matter the price.

    Of course binding targets doesn't mean everything will be bound to be approved, ACP will still be the body who decides if this contravention is right and proper, but that's something that they refused to consider. They also refused to acknowledge that the people of Ireland voted to declare a climate emergency, and changed the law to make climate issues more important in planning.

    Again, can you have proper planning or sustainable development if you are choosing to ignore the effects of climate change?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭dmakc


    We seem to be in agreement that the decision remains with ACP. And you absolutely can you have proper planning and sustainable development whilst apparently choosing to ignore the effects of climate change. ACP permitted a good number of wind, and just about every solar farm on their desk over the past few years, not bad for a body that apparently doesn't consider climate change?

    FWIW the people of Ireland did not vote to declare a climate emergency, this was a symbolic change by politicians at the tail end of their term, no referendum. Last November's exit polls had climate resonating with just 4% of voters.

    As for the key driver in making climate issues more important than planning itself, that was none other than Eamon Ryan. We all know how that turned out (although he has miraculously landed well in Europe). Same person wrote to planners that Gas plants "are a national priority and should be permitted" (making the country a blank, limitless canvas) and is now writing in the newspapers that we need to stop burning gas for energy - is it any wonder that ACP are scratching their heads.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Windfarms have not been approved, in fact the opposition to them has been scandalous. Wasn't it Sinn Fein who proposed to extend the exclusion limit to 10k from houses as part of their climate strategy rendering it impossible to build any windfarms.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-40735488.html

    We need to get real about the climate emergency.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭dmakc


    Windfarms certainly have (and are) being approved - it's just up to the developer to submit a sound application. Of course, WEI lobby extraordinaire Noel Cunniffe would have us believe otherwise.

    • ACP Wind farms from 2025 so far:

    7 Approved

    0 Refused

    • ACP Wind farms from 2023 & 2024:

    11 Approved

    5 Refused (mainly for CDP conformity)

    30 Appealed Applications decided in 2023-2024:

    15 Approved (despite 7 having been initially refused by local council)

    15 Refused (9 for multiple reasons, 6 for CDP conformity)

    That seems like a very good hit rate if you ask me, certainly can't be claimed that they're not being approved. Time we got serious? Just this week the EU just committed to US LNG - nobody in power is (or ever will be) genuinely serious about climate. This is reflected in the voting population. It all comes down to economics. Even this Statkraft case is a litigious economic strategy. All of these developers have their solicitors and high court on speed dial. We won't see any benefit in our bills anyway and Statkraft will sell on as per.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,315 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    I have a feeling that you haven't read the decision in question, which you can find here. Reading it is instructive, because this judge definitely does not agree with you that you can ignore climate change and have proper planning and sustainable development.

    Also, the only 4% cared for climate change is a bit misleading, to be honest. Part of that is the fact that every major party has significantly strengthened their own climate policies, there's very little between them all. That same exit poll shows that over half of those polled thought that the government that brought in all these climate laws didn't do enough on climate change.

    As it happens, the same judge, in this very decision, lambasted ACP for making a significant policy change back in 2022, where they seem to have decided that any renewable project that contravened a CDP would be rejected. As the judge explained, this was a fixed position, and not compatible with the law.

    ABP actually want to introduce more evidence to counter this, as the judge effectively said "you're lying", so the judge has taken it out of the judgement until after the Supreme Court gets done with it.

    Here's a final quote from Justice Humphreys, in a postscript to the Supreme Court:

    What would be hard to deny based on the empirical track-record to date is that voluntary actions are not going to be sufficient and that “binding” measures are necessary if one wants to actually achieve climate goals – the road to climate hell is paved with good intentions, as the applicant in the Friends of the Irish Environment case pointed out.

    I guess we just have to wait to see if the Supreme Court agrees with him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭dmakc


    I know this judge doesn't agree with me on this, and I expect ACP to ultimately reconsider given his tone. That said, I (and ACP) have the right to disagree with him. I think he's far too subjective. He certainly nailed his colours to the mast with his hyperbole around our landscape's rising sea levels and "the road to climate hell is paved with good intentions" 😂 (tell that last one to those in Derrybrien)

    I also think his interpretation of 15(1)A is a stretch beyond its legislative intent, expanding “have regard to” into almost mandatory climate compliance. As said before, this only reduces ACP's discretion and conflicts with statutory balancing obligations. He leans on overgeneralized climate narratives rather than robust technical evidence specific to the project.

    He also offers no guidance for balancing competing objectives in more complicated cases. No alternatives, no analysis of the "do nothing scenario" versus 2030, he comes a hair short of automating wind farm approvals as he doesn't think the current approval rates will get us there (7 approved, 0 rejected this year). You'd swear this is the most important wind farm to ever grace the EU



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    50:50 is not a good hit rate in the face of the climate emergency.

    We need to get on with building onshore wind farms and less of the NIMBY objections.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭dmakc


    Where are you getting 50/50 from? It's 78% success on original ACP wind farm applications alone.

    The 50/50 is just on appeals, with the greater share previously been denied by other planning bodies for various issues anyway. We can't drop planning standards by rewarding inadequate applications.

    FWIW, the solar hit rate is 96% for the same time period. Again, the idea that we need to up the ante is a myth peddled by lobbyists, and this particular Statkraft case is nothing more than a litigious economic strategy. These developers have the finances to appeal to whichever authority suits their agenda (i.e. ACP, High Court, CRU, EirGrid, SEMC, or WEI) repeatedly crying foul to manipulate the system in their favour, regardless of merit.

    Post edited by dmakc on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The court case is about ACP appeals, so the 50:50 is relevant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭dmakc


    It's disengenuous and deflective to ignore the original renewable energy application approvals. You're accusing ACP of not being serious about climate, yet 96% of solar and 78% of wind approved first time in the past three years would say otherwise. That is extremely high for enormous infrastructural projects that industrialise what was typically a different previous land use.

    Appeals are appeals for a reason - they're naturally contentious and come riddled with planning issues (CDP, SACs, SPAs, TII, inadequate EIARs, AAs, NIS, project splitting etc.). To blindly claim their approval should be greater than 50/50 "because climate", without addressing the actual issues of each case is a very high level, biased view to have.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 281 ✭✭specialbyte


    Read the judgement from Justice Humphries please. It's worth pointing out that the judge's issues are around the decision making process by ACP and not about it's decision. Just because the judge overturned the decision by ACP to reject permission doesn't mean he thinks it should be granted permission.

    His main complaint is that ACP gave almost no regard to the climate act's section 15. His issue is that because the project contradicted the development plan that ACP was inclined to reject permission from the get go (an a-priori decision), without considering if ACP should use their discretionary powers to grant a contradiction to the development plan in this case.

    ACP and it's own inspector just dismissed any positive climate gains from this project with pretty little consideration. That is not what the climate act section 15 requires. ACP need to seriously examine the climate benefits and disadvantages of projects and fairly weigh them against the other benefits or disadvantages of the project.

    In this case ACP said 'this breaches the development plan' so we should refuse it. The judge disagrees. The law requires that because this project breaches the development plan ACP should refuse it, as long as refusal doesn't undermine other national policy or legislation that would encourage ACP to use their discretion to grant permission regardless.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 306 ✭✭scrabtom




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,177 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    This is infuriating. Our system facilitates malcontent serial objectors like this holding the country back. This is just one individual/crank whatever you want to call them. We need serious change.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,315 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    The hearings mentioned above have been held, so now we wait for the supreme court to deliberate and make their judgement. Could be next week, could be next year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,339 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    It is indeed infuriating, Peter Sweetman can be an infuriating man.

    Because of this some communities and even some environmental organisations won't work with him.

    He's been at this serial objection game for a long time and unlikely to change now.

    At the heart of it the right to take part in decisions that affect the environment is enshrined in EU and Irish law.

    We can't stop him by changing laws without losing the rights we all may need at some time in the future.

    Good planning and adherence to the law by developers and state agencies would greatly reduce his activity.

    This interview was mentioned in the podcast, it's worth a quick read -

    Mick Clifford: The perpetual appeal of Peter Sweetman https://share.google/wfQa9h6RxBAgw5jBJ



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Thunder87


    The thing with Sweetman is he actually wins lots of cases because technically he's often right. The real issue is just the way our whole system is structured, a single unintentional technicality or oversight from the applicant can lead to years of delays and make projects unviable or just be completely struck out over some minor issue nobody really cares about.

    If we had busybodies and the legal system applying the same fanatically strict enforcement to the rest of society basically everyone would have a criminal record and most aspects of society would probably have to shut down because there's always something that can be argued as not 100% compliant with every paragraph of the law.

    I don't know what the solution is but the current system just doesn't do what it's supposed to, which ultimately should be to facilitate a functional society



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,827 ✭✭✭plodder


    Major changes to judicial reviews will seek to end spurious challenges to developments by rebalancing the rights of individuals with the common good, in a new law to be brought to government by justice minister Jim O’Callaghan in the coming weeks.The Business Post can reveal that the Civil Reform Bill will contain some of the most significant reforms to civil justice in decades, across a range of different areas.Building on planning reforms already introduced through the Planning and Development Act last year, one aspect of the new bill will focus on judicial reviews, which will be completely overhauled to ensure they are speedier, fairer, and can only be used to challenge genuine issues posed by new developments.

    One of the most significant reforms the legislation will propose is to rebalance what a court must consider in such applications, including a stronger focus on what is in the public interest.

    https://www.businesspost.ie/politics/exclusive-major-overhaul-of-judicial-reviews-to-rebalance-right-to-object-with-common-good-in-new-law/

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,315 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Seems good. To summarise, they're increasing the threshold needed to bring a JR in the first place (must have a substantial interest, must have applied to have the problem rectified and been refused, JR must be shown to have substantial grounds, must be shown to have a reasonable prospect of success, etc.) while also changing what a JR can actually do at the same time (the recent changes have made it so that the JR can be stopped so that any issues can be fixed, I'd imagine that this will be more of the same.)

    All in all, this looks like an excellent step towards having a planning system that actually works.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,177 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    When would this take practical effect though? Would it apply to projects currently in thr planning system? Presumably too late for certain projects about to emerge from the crystal maze of the planning system.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,539 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    How are "substantial interest" and "substantial grounds" (or whatever is contained in the legislation) defined?
    You could see a lot of people suddenly finding massive projects on their doorstep and no ability to act on it!

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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,315 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    At a guess, if it's on your doorstep, you'd have a substantial interest. If it's in another county, or is more than 10 km away, you don't. Something along those lines anyway. If you're an Environmental NGO, then you can take an environmental case regardless of distance, etc. It's a fairly sensible limit, in my opinion.

    The substantial grounds one is one that I could see being a bit tricker. Kind of requires the judge to already know the brief, otherwise how would he know what is substantial or not? Perhaps it's just a way of allowing a substantial grounds defence long before the JR hearings wiuld normally be scheduled to take place? I.e. when the JR is applied for, the defence could claim that the applicant doesn't have substantial grounds, and make them prove that the case they are attempting to bring is actually relevant.



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