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Trump - The positives - (see Mod note in OP)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,566 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Passports already make it clear who people are. That's literally the point.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭Palmach


    It has a name on it. The addition adds another layer to identification as do biometrics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,566 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It has more than that on it.

    This doesn't benefit anyone. It's just another MAGA stunt.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,316 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    If there's no benefit, then why bother stating a gender on the passport in the first place? To satisfy the idle curiousity of the immigration officer?

    Back on the border…

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyn9jwqzy8o



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,225 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    If there's no benefit, then why bother stating a gender on the passport in the first place? To satisfy the idle curiousity of the immigration officer?

    Actually, that's a good question.

    I'm sceptical that adding sex/gender to passports does very much at all to improve their utility for identification purposes, or that it ever did. When you've already got somebody's name and date of birth and a unique numeric identifiers, I struggle to think that there are going to be many cases in which there remains any ambiguity that is going to be resolved with information about gender.

    My guess is that it was originally included in passports because citizenship rights varued with gender. In the past, a woman who married a US citizen thereby acquired US citizenship. Conversely, a US citizen woman who married a non-citizen lost her US citizenship. And no doubt there were other sex-linked differneces in the nature and extent of citizenship rights. And the US wouldn't have been by any means alone in this. So it made sense for citizenship records to include data about sex. (And, fun fact, the main point of a passport is not to indentify you; you can usually identify yourself. It's to provide evidence of your citizenship.)

    Nowadays, gender is much less likely to be relevant for citizenship purpose, but gender still appears. I suspect this is largely a historical hangover — it has always appeared; why remove it? And this may be reinforced by international standards and conventions about passport design. (It's not a coincidence that all passports look like, well, passports, and that they are all laid out in a similar way.)

    Some countries do admit a third gender marker as an alternative to 'M' and 'F' — 'X', which may indicate a non-binary identification, or it may indicate an undetermined gender or an intersex person, or it may just indicate that the passport holder chooses not to add their gender to their passport — different countries vary as to the circumstances in which they use the 'X' marker. And the fact that this is permitted, and doesn't seem to cause any problems, tends to confirm that the gender marker isn't really relevant to identification — people seem to get indentified just fine with a gender marker of indeterminate meaning.

    Also worth noting that lots of countries permit the use of 'M' and 'F' by reference to transitioned gender, rather than gender at birth. And, actually, if your main concern really is with identification, this makes sense — a trans person is more likely to present with the appearance of the gender to which they have transitioned than of the gender to which they were assigned at birth, so in these cases recordiing only brth gender seems more likely to confuse the process of indentification than to simplify it.

    To be fair to the administration, they do not pretend that their insistance on designating birth gender in passports has anything at all to do with identification, or for that matter with citizenship. The executive order which was challenged in the Supreme Court is very open about being motivated by ideological considerations, asserting that "efforts to eradicate the biological reality of sex fundamentally attack women by depriving them of their dignity, safety, and wellbeing", and that "the erasure of sex in language and policy has a corrosive impact not just on women but on the validity of the entire American system". There isn't a word in the order about the utility of passports for identification or, indeed, their utility for any purpose at all.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,826 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    Afaik the birth cert of a child has to include the sex at birth, you need a birth cert to apply for a passport. I know you can have your birth cert changed legally later on if you wish, so what the current position on your birth cert is should be the current position on your passport?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,225 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    In Ireland, if you get a gender recognition certificate, you can then get both a revised birth certificate showing your preferred gender, and a passport showing your preferred gender.

    (You don't have to — once you get the GRC it's up to you to use it to get a revised birth cert and/or a new passport, so in theory you could use it to get one of these but not the other. But I can't imagine that many people who are motivated to get a GRC would want to do that.)

    Things are more complicated in the US where birth registration is a matter for the states, but passports are issued by the federal government. The states vary in their practice — there are some states where you can get a revised birth cert showing your preferred gender and/or which will issue birth certificates with an 'X' gender marker or something of the kind, and other states where you cannot. States that do allow revised birth certificates may differ in when they allow them. For example, in California you simply assert your preferred gender; in New York you'll need a medical affidavit; in Alabama you'll have to have undergone gender reassignment surgery; in Tennessee no change is possible under any circumstances.

    The new rules US on passports apply irrespective of what your state-issued birth cert says or doesn't say.

    (Even if you do have a revised birth cert the registration records held by the state do show both your original registration details and any changes, so information about your originally-assigned gender isn't irretrievably lost; it just doesn't appear on a birth certificate issued today. So if the Feds really, really want to, they can find out what gender you were registered with when you were born. In practice, I don't know whether the US passport office is going to double-check every birth certificate presented to them to see the details in the state register of births are different from what's in the certificate.)



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Bringing the thread back on topic, there is no benefit to adding gender onto a passport at birth other than to appease a bunch of bigoted MAGA idiots. The article linked by the OP even mentions how this move was linked to Trumps campaign "to end the policies of his predecessor on transgender Americans as well as on diversity, equity and inclusion, or DEI".
    It was intended to help spread hatred and division amongst Americans - hardly a positive.

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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,316 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    An interesting post, and government inertia is indeed a thing, there is something to it.

    On the other hand, my sex is listed on my driver’s license. That can’t be a hold-over: back in the days when women couldn’t drive, there was no point in a sex marker in the first place. If you had a license, you were male. Similarly my height and eye colour don’t grant any particular additional rights or restrictions, they are almost certainly there for identification purposes. As I look at my license to carry, it also has my hair colour, now updated to grey, and weight, which is now a kg or two more than it was when I got it. Both are relatively volatile items for identification purposes, but they have even less purpose as to any rights or permissions.

    Then again, apparently sex was only added to US passports in the 1970s, though I’m having a devil of a time trying to understand why.

    There is a third factor… The purpose of the passport is to enact agreements between countries for the benefit of their citizens. There are some nations which do not accept trans-identifying or non binary passports, people have been turned back at immigration because of it. Not that I’m saying that this has anything to do with the Trump administration decision, but it is an argument. The citizen’s state sets the standards for issuing a passport, but the other countries set the standards for accepting them. This may be the cause of the addition in the 1970s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,225 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Interesting. And equally interesting is the fact that Irish driving licences don't include sex, and have never included sex. And the same is true for many other European countries. Some European countries which did include sex dropped it when an EU standard design for driving licences was adopted — the standard design doesn't include a field for sex.

    Another fun fact: US military dog tags include a number of identifiers, but they don't include sex. (And, SFAIK, never did.) The Common Access Card issued to serving personel also does not show sex, either printed on the card or readable from the chip.

    And another: Australia driving licences don't show sex. They used to, along with other identifiying information (height, eye colour, and in some states hair colour and build) but after licences with photographs became standard in the 1970s the descriptive text was no longer thought necessary and was dropped. (So it seems that sex was being dropped from Australian licences at about the same time as it was being added to US licences. Weird, or what?)

    The evidence (and common sense) suggests that information about gender generally adds little or no utility to an identifying document. And, across a range of identifying documents, there isn't much consistency about whether it's included or not.

    But, when it is included, it becomes yet another ground for culture wars to be be fought on. Which, I suggest, is in itself a good reason for omitting gender — if we don't need to show gender on a document then, in the current climate, we probably need not to show it. It adds no value, and just pisses people off. (Unless you're of the view that pissing people off is valuable in itself, of course.)

    There is a third factor . . There are some nations which do not accept trans-identifying or non binary passports, people have been turned back at immigration because of it. Not that I’m saying that this has anything to do with the Trump administration decision, but it is an argument.

    It's a good point. But I think it may be answered by saying that it's optional for citizens to seek a trans-identifying or non-binary passport — those who fear being turned back can get a passport showing their birth gender. If they prefer a passport showing their preferred gender, despite the risk of being refused entry to some countries, should the state second-guess that and refuse to let them have the passport they want?

    Plus, of course, if someone has transitioned and presents as their trans gender, a passport identifying them with their birth gender is likely to cause them a different set of problems, because what the passport says doesn't match what the passport officer sees. (So I think you're right — the US administration's position here is not driven by any consideration of the utility of the passport to the citizen to whom it is issued. And, to be fair to them, they don't make any pretence of being even marginally concerned about that.)

    Thse countervailing considerations suggest that passports, too, are among the documents from which sex indications should probably be dropped. But apparently no country has completely dropped them — at most, they have added an optional 'X' identifier, or similar. This is because in 1980 the International Civil Aviation Organisation adopted standards for passports which required, and still require, a field showing sex. (The standard explicitly permits an 'X' identifier in this field.) No country wants to depart from the standard, so any change here will require concerted action at the ICAO to modify the standard, either to eliminate the sex field or to make it optional for countries to include a sex field.

    Post edited by Peregrinus at


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