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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭big-al


    he really, really isn’t.


    Lowe has major weaknesses in his game, particularly top end speed and defensively. He isn’t improving at 33 either.

    Stockdale has been consistently one of the top wingers in the URC and Europe when he has been fit in the past 24months and has already proven himself at international rugby, scoring iconic individual tries that Lowe could only dream of scoring.


    lowe was a bag of turnips on the Lions tour. Deservedly dropped.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭big-al


    hmm, if you think Lowe hasn’t errors in his game then you are deeply one eyed.


    take a look at the tackle stats for Hanson/Lowe whenever they have played in 10 internationals.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,346 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    In the last two seasons Stockdale has scored 12 tries (1 in Europe). Lowe has scored 25 (10 in Europe)

    If that puts Stockdale as one of Europe's top wingers and Lowe isn't, then I've no clue what the metrics say.

    I hate these "my player is better than your player" arguments because they are ALWAYS based on provincial bias.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,069 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    In fairness, Stockdale's iconic tries are going back 7-8 years, it's no basis for picking a team for tomorrow.

    His injury record has been very unfortunate but it's also a fact of life.

    He can't really complain about his status.

    Is Lowe past his best? It certainly looks like it. But that doesn't mean he isn't still the best option.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,990 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I've never liked head-to-head comparisons on things like try-scoring records for individual players when they play in diametrically opposite performing teams.

    Here's my take; imo, in the last 12-18 months, Stockdale when fit is probably in his best spell of form since 2018. Lowe, on the other hand had a really poor set of Autumn International's last year, for example (particularly defensively imo). And a poor Lions tour and start to this season.

    Lowe is getting on in age, but he still has that physicality that none of our other wingers have. His left boot too is a huge asset, particularly if we are continuing to transition to a kick-heavy gameplan. (You do want speed for the kick-chase tho, which Lowe has never had).

    Lowe is in the driving seat, but I don't think it'd be a complete shock if Stockdale leapfrogs him in the next 12 months, say. Imo, a lot of it will come down to what we want to do / the form of Hansen and TOB.

    Hansen, for me, is the first choice wing when everyone is fit. He also has the versatility to play either wing so it broadens the options behind him.

    I think come 6 Nations time or, say, next AI's, it could be Mack Hansen plus one of TOB or Stockdale tbh (if they maintain their current form). There'd definitely a discussion to be had there at least.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,031 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Yeah as a leinster fan I love Lowe's strengths but I have to acknowledge his weaknesses. There's always an argument for dropping a player with significant weaknesses in favour of some with different strengths.

    I'm not calling for Lowe to be dropped, but he's vulnerable to someone with high end pace and better defence. Lowe's big clearance kicks are a point of difference (but might be mitigated by Osborne having a similar ability). And his footballing (nebulous term which I understand to mean skill to do something like kick, pass or something really tricky in almost no space) is excellent.

    A player with significant weaknesses should be vulnerable to being replaced by a player with different strengths. His age brings that dropping closer. It's as much an opportunity as a cause for concern.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Every player has weaknesses in their game. Some players make 'errors' because of them.

    Lowe and Stockdale are an example. The margin for 'error' with Stockdale is unfortunately allot bigger.

    Stockdale has more pace than Lowe. Thats where the pros/cons comparison starts/ends in favour of Stockdale.

    I expect he will start v Japan and do very well in attack. (edit: I'd start JOB)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,388 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    It's very possible James Lowe will lose his place over the next 12 months or so, it wouldn't be shocking given his age profile, but I wouldn't say it's nailed on Jacob Stockdale will be the guy to take it.

    Lowe can be castigated for his defence plenty, but it's not exactly a shining strength in Stockdale's game either (or Hansen's for that matter).

    Neither are particularly quick anymore by international winger standards. While they're of similar size, Lowe is a far more physical player and a much better ball handler who is more creative. He also has a better kicking game than Stockdale.

    I think the guy who might step up and take the shirt in time is Shayne Bolton, or possibly even Diarmuid Kilgallen if he can get a consistent run of fitness. Coaches clearly like Bolton; he's quick and strong and a good try scorer. Neither player (Bolton or Kilgallen) have much in the way of a kicking game to shout about.

    I think Tommy O'Brien has the most well rounded skillset of all of our wingers; he is one of the very quickest, has a good step, is very aggressive defensively, good in the air and a good jackal threat on the ground. If he can just stay healthy I'd back him to lock down the 14 shirt.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭big-al


    he was a one man team for ulster last season.


    the only player capable of a break due to the poor setup of the Ulster backline.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,690 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Agreed but I think that's what the ABs need in their blindside. Lakai, Savea and Sittiti are all game changers and Parker is the workhorse.

    The greatest back row of all time saw Read and McCaw grabbing the headlines, because they were ridiculously good, but also because Kaino was doing the unseen donkey work.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,562 ✭✭✭✭phog


    This is the thing, comparing one player on a team to another player on a different team for tries scored is a really silly comparison.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,360 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    But useful for putting down players from outside of one's own province.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    Is there a sense of agreement on here that Stockdale has been consistently one of the top wingers in the URC and Europe when he has been fit in the past 24months as per an earlier post on the topic?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    I'm sorry but you are just undermining your point.

    That would have been McCloskey. (And this is his third consecutive start for Ireland!)

    Followed by Lowry and Kok (until his injury).

    Stockdale did well with ball in hand but he was not a 'one man team'.

    In fairness Jack Murphy (and Doak) also played quite well in the latter half of the season.

    Really hope that trio of Doak, Murphy and McCloskey play together allot this season.

    Maybe this is the season that Doak will push into the Ireland squad.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,346 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    the only 'putting down' of a player came from a poster who described a player as "a bag of turnips" and one who has "massive weaknesses in his game". Anything i said was factual and not hyperbolic like that other poster.

    pointless argument anyway. Lowe is in the twilight of his career (as a 33 yo winger). Hopefully Stockdales current form continues for the same length that Lowes has and Jacob becomes a real option for Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,642 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Stockdale isn't even the best winger at Ulster. I'd take Baloucoune over him every single time. Faster, more dynamic runner, and a better defender.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,360 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Over TOB? Because I don't think Bob has ever played on the left wing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,642 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    No, as I said, I would pick him over Stockdale for the Ireland squad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,642 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Anyone have a link to the post that had the comparative minutes played for teams at the world cup? Trying to find it, but Boards search function is diabolical.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,990 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    This was doing the rounds prior to the QF, I think:

    image.png


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭50HX


    All good points

    If we are to stay playing the way we are then I don't think there is any shifting Lowe mainly because of the use of his boot which no other winger in that position has at present. He still has strength & all wingers will be questioned on their defense anyway( he's had that before & mainly rectified it)

    We don't play a game whereby we rely on speedster wingers like other teams because we don't have them bar an unproven TOB.

    Lowe is well minded re club minutes & mainly features at club level once knockout time arrives.

    Last season he had more Test minutes than club minutes up to the CC semi final iirc.

    Bolton may be viable alt but when do we see him enough to learn about him?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,388 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Bolton is out there right now with the squad, he played on the summer tour, I expect him to play against Japan potentially too. If he goes well there and has been going well in training so far, it's not outrageous to think he could force his way in for either Australia or South Africa.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,235 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Baloucoune - is 28 now and only 4 caps. Disappointing stats really, not his own fault but a player of his quality could add to the team, really hope he stays injury free.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    'William' Wallace Sititi was amazing against Ireland last year. Carried really hard, hit rucks hard and won a pen in the rucks. Is he still playing as well?

    Himself and vdF had a great battle. Great option to have on the bench. And would he come on for Parker?

    Trivia: Name the players

    Untitled Image Untitled Image


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,990 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Jeremy Staunton? (I like this Trivia idea tho, may be one for another thread; whoever gets it right has to post another photo).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,690 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    @ionadnapoca

    Yeah Sittiti has been playing well this season. I think he'd come on for Lakai unless theres an injury or the latter is having a stormer.

    Is Semo Sittiti in the blue?

    Post edited by Yeah_Right on


  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,346 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    is that Inga Tui'gamala ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,388 ✭✭✭FtD v2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,388 ✭✭✭FtD v2




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61 ✭✭shimmieandshake


    I do think Lowe's out of form / on the wane - he definitely struggled with the Lions, and vs. Munster the other day - but I think he gets a hard time.

    His power broke the game open against England in this year's Six Nations, and against Scotland the next week. When our attack was going nowhere, it was his power that was the point-of-difference, the something-from-nothing we desperately needed.

    He lacks pace, for sure. And his defence can be suspect. But given his power, his kicking and his ability to pop up in midfield, there's no-one better at the moment.

    And, by the way, I think Stockdale has been in really good form, has been very unlucky with injuries, and also has game-breaking attributes… I just think Lowe edges it overall, especially with the 'messy wingers' style that Farrell loves.



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