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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,184 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    I'm away from home and my laptop at the moment. I'll get together the files and send you on a link to a few articles and at least 1 book that springs to mind in the next couple of days.
    I'm recovering from surgery and will hopefully be back up to speed before the weekend.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,887 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Get well soon Banie lad



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,216 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Hope it wasn't serious and yeah, get well soon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,184 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Thanks lads, the good wishes are much appreciated.

    It's nothing life threatening but hopefully it will lead to a much improved quality of life for me.
    I had a spinal cord stimulator implanted, to try and get on top of long term Ilioinguinal and genitofemoral neuropathy and nerve pain.

    I now have a battery mounted in my arse, wired into my spine and controlled by an app 👀

    Overwhelming and debilitating pain?
    There's an app for that! (I hope)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,423 ✭✭✭dinorebel


    I was in emergency for acute hip pain recently and have 50 Oxycontin pills going spare😉



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,887 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The auld opioids are no joke. A good pal of mine had intensive cancer treatment on his head over the summer, and was on various opioids to cope with the worst of the damage. The treatment went really well, but he never felt worse as having to come off the painkillers once he was home recovering



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,184 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Thanks but I'm good for the strong stuff 😉
    I've had a PRN script for both Oxycontin and Oxynorm since 2019.
    I am luckier than a lot of people with neuropathic pain insofar as opioids do at least work on mine.
    I didn't actually realise how sore, and how widespread my own pain was until I was 1st prescribed Oxy.

    A very, very effective medication but one that really can cause serious issues with addiction and indeed needing more and more for the same level of effectiveness.

    Here's to the new implant working 🤞



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 43 BATDIV


    walks in looking to discuss fighter jets… sees people discussing their ailments 😆



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,887 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,423 ✭✭✭dinorebel


    Should probably add I wasn't trying to deal drugs here😂 Back to the Jets and realistically is the Gripen the only viable option?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,184 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    😉 Sure even if you were dealing?
    It's not like our Air Corps could do much about it 👀

    On the fighter front, it's a topic I've touched on before in that the growing demand on all manufacturers is going to narrow our options as order books fill up.

    Yesterday the French announced their biggest single Rafale order, adding 61 more to their own backlog.
    It's also very likely IMHO that India will be adding 114 more albeit likely with localised assembly to that backlog very soon too.

    That means any Rafale order that we'd hope to see in service within 5yrs would have to be filled directly from AdA airframes rather than immediate new build, requiring a G2G deal for that.

    The Gripen E order book is on foot of Ukraine's LOI very interesting.
    I think another 6 for Brazil are due to be built in Sweden with the Colombian and Thai Gripen E's giving a Swedish line order book of approx 75 airframes before any firming up of Ukrainian order of 100+.

    The likelihood is that Colombia and any other South American orders will have a majority of the build undertaken in Brazil.
    The Thai, Swedish and Ukrainian Airframes will be built in Sweden and I think that the likelihood is that SAAB will initiate a 2nd production line to ensure speed and security if supply (particularly if Canada comes on board).
    The availability of Swedish C/D airframes most also now be considered more constrained in light of possible intro to Ukrainian service.

    For immediate supply of "new" the Korean options can't be ignored in particular the KF21 but unless they set up a production line in Poland?
    I'd much prefer for reasons of support, scalability, intraoperatability and European solidarity that we buy European.

    Ireland's inability to grasp the nettle on this matter has very quickly led to a situation where we may well have to settle for what's available, rather than what's best or what we need.
    Defence procurement must be seen as both long term and incredibly urgent.
    We need to foster a culture of ensuring we meet our future needs, rather than buying sticking plasters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,216 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I agree with pretty much all of that, I've pointed out repeatedly that our combination of "couldn't be bothered" morphing to "slow and sure we'll do something" attitude especially post 2022 has left us in the worst of all worlds, and will continue to bit us on the arse for years to come even if somehow the various departments actually started to engage with Reality.

    In terms of production runs, if the French do push up to 48-50 a year then while they will have a backlog it's not horrifically bad yet, also they and the Italians are big fans of selling off hardware from the military to replace it with newer models, as such I think that 61 order includes replacements for sold aircraft, attritional losses and keeping the line hot, not sure whether there's actually a total increase in the numbers for the French Air Force? In which case, sure we might be able to get a deal like they gave Croatia for second hand Rafale's which wouldn't be the worst if it was on the table, lot fewer hours than some of the older 4th gen fighters.

    I have seen comments that even if Canada doesn't jump their way the order from Ukraine pretty much means a second line in Sweden for Gripen, but again either we're at the back of the line for new build or a G2G from the Swedish stocks, though as you point out the "stored" ones could be already gone, and I doubt they would be thrilled for the moment to sell any in service aircraft.

    The best time for all this would have been post 9/11, second worst was post 2014 Crimea, third worst would have been as soon as the full invasion happened in 2022, but god bless the DOD et al, they have got us to the absolute worst point short of a world war to be looking for large capital buys and new capability generation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    A right old horlicks of a situation to be sure…and even the less desirable stuff will start to get snatched up by other desperate nations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 147 ✭✭A1ACo


    All the production lines now (very) full up, were the Gripen second-hand C/Ds our last hope?!…

    'No, there is another'

    There is another

    ?

    UK Finalizes Its Last Britain-Built Eurofighter Typhoon – Aviation News:

    End of an Era: Final Typhoon Rolls Off UK Line as RAF Backs Stealthier Future with F-35s | 🛩️𝙈𝙖𝙜

    Seems that production and assembly pretty much stopped last year, and staff relocated etc. but notable I'd think that the other 3 partner nations have put in the recent orders mentioned earlier (to their assembly lines).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,216 ✭✭✭sparky42


    The UK supply chains will still be involved in the production for the other nations, and there's still some export orders trying to get over the line, but the UK is betting everything on Tempest coming in on time/spec/budget and nothing happening between now and widespread supply of them… It's a big gamble given previous examples, if it goes wrong the existing Typhoon's are going be beyond broken by 2035+.

    For us though, not convinced.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 147 ✭✭A1ACo


    True, a full squadron may break the bank, but maybe a lease or something… as above seems like diminishing options?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,260 ✭✭✭CrowdedHouse


    Probably a ball hop but The Ditch (I think) claimed the department had big chats with Lockheed so I suppose it's F-16's 😉

    Seven Worlds will Collide



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,216 ✭✭✭sparky42


    lease of who? The man European users need every airframe they have.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,216 ✭✭✭sparky42


    If that shower of shite said water was wet I’d drown the lot of them to check. A quick look on Google is a headline of “DOD talks to arms manufacturers before budget”… We are supposedly in a period of procurement, that’s what they should be doing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 147 ✭✭A1ACo


    Lease of some new, UK-build Eurofighters?

    I think the reference in the news about Lockheed included two other general defence manufacturers meeting government together as part of some industry reps… as in three came in together to meet civil servants I think it was stated.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,260 ✭✭✭CrowdedHouse


    I'm sure there's salespeople from all the arms manufacturers in semi regular contact with the department.

    Seven Worlds will Collide



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 147 ✭✭A1ACo


    As an aside, its hard to tell sometimes with all the moaning, but are some big UK defence equipment changes/ losses made on a rationale, economic basis, or do 'geopolitical' aspects play a large part too, re looks like they leave themselves short a bit sometimes… e.g. them dropping their previous (too special) 'bespoke' maritime patrol aircraft, dropping all their Sea Harriers and then the rest, and now ridding themselves of their Tranche 1 Eurofighters and not ordering new ones (unlike its partners).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,216 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I'm not sure what you mean, lease new builds from who? The Eurofighter consortium?

    I would hope they aren't just in contact with the Department, ideally the Department should be reaching out to the major suppliers given the amount of equipment we need to replace just to stand still, let alone actually grow capabilities. The Ditch is just going with the whole "THE GOVERNMENT ARE EVIL NATO WARMONGERS! Oh and here's a nice article about a lady from Galway!"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,216 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Nah, it's more they have made plenty of absolute balls up of their procurement time after time, remember our Department is modelled on their MOD after all, the all crunching Budget issues (particularly whenever their CASD is facing its generational investment) and of course interservice Bull.

    The Nimrod rebuild was an attempt to use modern computing machined parts to mate to 1960's aircraft, only to find out that they were all basically hand crafted with variances between each airframe, it shouldn't have surprised anyone that it didn't work, given it was well known since the V bombers had the same issues. The Project should never have been started in the first place, and losing an entire aircraft and crew over Afghanistan did nothing to help the idea.

    Harriers were just the fact that the only user was the RN and if it comes to what the RAF has to sacrifice when faced with budget issues it's always going to be the RN, hence the nonsense of chopping 35B order to get 35A's just to be able to have tactical nuclear bombing with US warheads, while conveniently crippling the billions of investment into the RN by leaving the Carrier wings short critical mass, so win all around for the RAF, screw everyone else.

    The choice on the T1's is that they are not economically viable for upgrades and limited to air to air mostly, so the economic value of sustaining them is dropping which is what the other partners are faced with as well, but they are rebuilding/replacing with Typhoons, and the same argument has been made by the USAF over the first few dozen F22's and likely will be an issue for the first iterations of the various F35's for all the first users. The not ordering new ones by the UK is again just down to budget, the UK can fund its part in Tempest (maybe) or it can buy new 35's/Typhoons, it can't afford both. So "gap it and hope", just like their disaster of a RN fleet replenishment plan is, or whatever the hell the British Army is getting up to for their procurement plans.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 147 ✭✭A1ACo


    Lease as in something like, a government to government deal - the UK says it'll commit to buying a squadron of Eurofighters from its UK factory, and it can say the first few in the lot would be leased to Ireland, and the remainder to go to themselves (RAF) or to the first next foreign customer…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,216 ✭✭✭sparky42


    But the UK has no interest in bring any T4 or T5's into service in the RAF at all, or being stuck holding the bag if the next Irish Government is SF et al, and would prefer nice Russians visiting rather than nasty NATO, or if nobody else comes forward to buy a handful of planes that may or may not fit in with whatever else they are using.

    It might make "cute hoor" sense to us to try a game like that, but it really doesn't to the nations actually supplying the arms. The UK Supply chains have the other users of Typhoon and now new Gripen orders and some F35 part supply chains, along with the planned upgrades for the existing RAF fleet. For the UK that really doesn't have the spare millions in the defence budget at the moment, it just doesn't make sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 147 ✭✭A1ACo


    Talking of cute hoor, it could have fringe benefits such as depending on how muted the roundels are, people might find it hard to see if it is an RAF 'Typhoon', or a IRLAF 'Eurofighter' flying over Ireland on a Combat Air Patrol…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,216 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Again though, that might benefit us, it doesn't for the UK.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 147 ✭✭A1ACo


    Entirely speculative of course, but I'm not sure it would not have benefits for the UK… it would provide another export customer (however small) and more importantly keep the production line open and skills on-tap - and an easier sell to potential export customers to say it is still open and available than the say 'Wait, until we re-open it please, by hopefully x date', with the sweetner of a few new-build planes ready to go to start the deliveries to a new customer, and likely I'd think politically looks better in terms of industry and jobs for them.

    Otherwise a handful of brand new Typhoons to keep their squadrons going till 2035 or so couldn't hurt as a bit of an insurance policy?

    A hefty no-refund deposit on the Irish side could start the lease and plane production ball rolling (regardless of subsequent changes in government even if later resulting in a cancelled order). Again, entirely speculative/ imagination time!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,265 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Sounds like some SAAB Gripens is what the Irish air force needs specifically these ones,

    Low maintenence can land anywhere cheap to fly sound perfect for the Irish air Force.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



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