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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,631 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/new-bray-greystones-dart-plan-aims-to-increase-frequency-of-trains-by-50pc/a257307665.html

    I just read this... wow!

    "It is expected that a planning application will be made on the project in the third quarter of 2026.

    Subject to planning being granted and funding being allocated, it is expected that construction will begin in 2028 with a construction period of approximately two years.

    “The NTA welcomes the next phase of the DART+ programme being brought forward to consultation,” Hugh Creegan, interim chief executive of the National Transport Authority said"

    Four years for this joke project?

    6 week public consultation started yesterday, runs until December 4th... lol... a month is more than enough. Are these consultations even required by law ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,076 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    FWIW here is the technical report previously discussed. The interventions it analyses are

    • Double track Bray Head-Greystones station (2.4km)
    • Passing loop (800m) south of Bray Head
    • Double track Bray Station - Putland Rd (700m)
    • New crossover at Bray
    • New head-shunt at Greystones

    and combinations of the above. The addition of the loop doesn't add a huge amount of benefit as trains would have to stop in the loop to allow passing, meaning a longer runtime. Much of the improvement seems to come from the new signalling system.

    Even with the current signalling, a 20 minute service is theoretically possible, but there would be 100% track utilisation and the driver would have sprint along the platform in Greystones. I guess they think a small improvement makes it feasible. The report states that 75% track utilisation is the max recommended. Only the crossover is now in the "preferred option" but it isn't shown in isolation in the technical report, only in combination with the loop, so it's difficult to assess really.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    4 years to demolish a section of platform and lay some track, and to upgrade a single level crossing (with construction of one building) presumably all on IÉ land? Am I misreading or is that the actual totality of the works proposed here?

    Why does any of that other than the new building need any consultation or process, and why would the building not just need standard planning permission to Wicklow CC??

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,547 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,297 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    To be fair irish rail were going ahead with consultation on the full DART+ south 2 or 3 years ago now and the NTA shat the bed and pulled the plug, not wanting to find the sandymount residents. Maybe that was a good thing to do in the face of a hopeless 'planning' system



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,664 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    For those of us not in the loop does this mean this new plan is instead of DART + South?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,547 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The level crossing between Lansdowne and Merrion Gates need a solution. As does Bray Head.

    The LC problem starts with Merrion Gates which can be solved with its closure and the route going through the carparks at Merrion Church and the former CTT office carpark on Strand Road. Plans already drawn up, so could go ahead quickly. If that was done, the LC at Sydney Parade could be closed - either permanently or mostly. One bus route (47) would be affected.

    That leaves three to solve.

    Bray Head needs a tunnel.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Bray Head needs a tunnel but can't justify one with current usage, long distance services are better served by reopening Wexford to Waterford

    Commuter is better served by all becoming DART and running through. If the increase in frequency of service leads to dramatically increased passenger numbers then I'd say you're still looking at a proper tunnel only when the current line is in critical need of replacing before it falls in the sea...

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,076 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    the technical report says that 4 tph is possible if all the interventions were done between Bray and Greystones (i.e. double track as much as can be done without tunnelling, plus new signalling and crossovers). That would be expensive but much cheaper than tunnelling and a 15 minute frequency is probably sufficient for the next 40 years for Greystones/Wicklow.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37 orb123


    From the project website "Upon completion, the project will serve all 1209 existing stations along the railway corridor between Dublin City Centre and Greystones Station" 😅

    Mistakes happen, I guess.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,297 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    The NTA appear to have insisted on a public consultation for the Bray Greystones works which are largely technical in nature, beyond the knowledge and interest of the general public and entirely within CIE land. I wonder is there a culture issue here, trying to add layers of crap onto relatively simple projects that border on standard maintenance and upgrade.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭Consonata


    I never understood the argument of how opening the Rosslare/Waterford route fixes this issue.

    If every station south of Wicklow town is too low volume to prioritise serving with rail, then how does only serving 2 stations south of wicklow with a new railway alignment make sense? Whats the plan for Arklow, Gorey and Enniscorthy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,262 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Roughly, it seems to be that the Intercity services go via Waterford to Heuston and avoid getting clogged in stopping commuter services.

    Enniscorthy and further North (actually probably still all the way from Rosslare, with the new route trains starting in Wexford South, but that's a guess - Wexford to Enniscorthy still needs trains!) would be all stops or nearly all stops and not cause timetabling issues as a result.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,076 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Oh please don't start this Wexford discussion again...

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 167 ✭✭VeryOwl


    Why does there need to be a public consultation on some re-signalling?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,547 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think any route south of Wicklow is not relevant. What is relevant is the Bray head constriction that makes terminating IC trains from Wexford at Greystones or Wicklow sensible.

    It would also make services from Dublin to Wexford available in the morning. Currently the first train from Dublin arrives in Wexford after 12 noon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭Bodan


    The new Dart trains have been delayed until Q2 2027 due to quality issues with the batteries.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Any link on this? Might explain why the government have seemingly held off on the Dart Replacement order, although the most likely reason is that they're just busy with other stuff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭Bodan


    Mary Considine mentioned it this morning to the Joint committee on Transport in response to overcrowding at peak times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,492 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The above post is correct there is a delay



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,254 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It was confirmed at the Oireachtas Transport Committee this morning by Mary Considine, the new CEO.

    There are issues with the batteries that are having to be dealt with by the battery manufacturer.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    So, on the JR for Dart+ North, I've been looking at it, and it's somewhat complicated.

    IR want to put an OHLE depot on IR lands beside the AITL land, which requires access by heavy goods vehicles. This means that the access road down to the car park at the station (through which the depot will be accessed), is woefully inadequate. In truth, it's inadequate for the current use, as shown by the huge amount of car crashes there. IR want to regularise access to the car park/depot, which involves moving the access away from the rail line and bridge, and making the approach 90 degrees from the main road. They also create an official bus stop at that point, replacing the current "side of the country road" stop.

    To do this, they need to CPO the land. It's a bigger land take than you'd expect, as HGVs need access, which means wider turning circles. IR have said that they'll maintain access to the farm land, and indeed have designed in a gate for the land. AITL say that they'll now need to talk to IR about any future plans for that frontage, instead of just applying to the council.

    AITL also say that IR should have looked elsewhere for the depot, including the IR owned car park on the other side of the tracks.

    Overall, the argument that AITL is losing their road frontage is not strong. IR have made pains to show that they're willing to engage in the future on any plans, and a presumption that they're telling the truth must be in place. I definitely think that IR would be more than happy to make accommodations in the future.

    The main argument that AITL will be going with, as far as I can see, is that IR didn't need to make that location the depot, and didn't look elsewhere. It's a stronger argument, but does have it's limits. Could it have been done in the carpark on the other side of the tracks? Sure, definitely. The down side of that, however, is that the car park is often quite full already, and that's before there's increased services going there. Does it make sense to reduce the park and ride ability from there? Will other locations on the line have the same or similar issues?

    In my opinion, I think that this is something that can, and probably will, be settled right before it gets to the court room. The costs and the risks go up dramatically after that point, so that's when I expect this to settle, if it does at all. In court, it will depend on if IR can defend choosing that site, without looking at other locations.

    As an aside, it's this kind of thing that makes me say that our planning system isn't working. You can talk all you want about our planners making better decisions and better applications, but at a certain point, there's literally too much law and regulations that you need to comply with. To me, it's obvious and common sense that Dart+ North should be able to CPO this land to enable a depot, but because IR haven't given a good enough reason for the depot to be sited there, the depot is put at risk.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Wasn't questioning it, just wanted to read about it. Sorry if came across as something else @Bodan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 484 ✭✭PlatformNine


    If it's a battery issue does that mean the EMU sets are still on time? If the full capacity boost from the first two orders has to wait until 2027, it would at least be nice if there could be a little boost next year with the introduction of some EMU sets.

    It is incredibly frustrating to the BEMUs delayed, though. What I think is most frustrating though is not just that it is delaying capacity improvements for the Northern line, but also that is delaying the cascading of fleets and capacity improvements for line that have an even greater need for a boost in capacity. I am really hoping this can be resolved as quickly as possible, and/or that they can find an interim solution to get at least some bump in capacity before mid-2027.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,492 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The 6 EMU trains should be delivered ASAP. 3 BEMU's are here already they could be put to work if the batteries are safe and working within the performance specs. Crumbs really against the massive capacity injection needed

    The question which we don't know the answer to is what is the battery issue, is it supply chain or a fundamental engineering issue in the battery which requires a complete redesign and recertification



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,254 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    No, I don’t think you will see anything introduced before Q2 2027.

    I’ll be honest, having seen every new class of train across the water in the last decade face significant delays before being introduced into passenger service, this isn’t really surprising unfortunately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,174 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    The Irish Times reported earlier this evening that the batteries on the Alstom Dart+ trains have to be redesigned because similar batteries were tested on a rail project in Australia.

    OP Mobility who are the supplier of these battery packs to Alstom said they were recommended that the battery packs had to be redesigned to improve efficiency for the Dart + trains here and also for a similar rail project taking place in NZ.

    Link to the IT article



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    "While these battery packs have been in use for almost one year during testing with no major issues or concerns"

    Well that's not true. 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭gjim


    Very disappointing.

    I know the BEMU format has fans and defenders on here but I recall arguing about the riskiness of IR choosing to make BEMUs a critical aspect of the DART+ plans a long while back. Betting on this relatively novel technology (for metro/commuter services) always carried significant risk.

    Maybe it was a necessary risk or the only option given the other constraints but there was very little acknowledgement of the significance of this risk - except after the decision was made - in a video given by one of IR’s new hires for DART+ - sorry can’t remember guys name - but during his presentation, he mentions that he probably wouldn’t have chosen BEMUs - because of their novelty and the fact that the tech was unproven in the field of metro/commuter services.

    I understand the reasons for why it was chosen - it was seen as delivering value before OHLE was completed and the fleet needed replacement.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,297 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    No doubt some work will be underway on DART+ by the time the BEMUs start serving Drogheda, perhaps not wires going up but it looks like the bemu could be a short lived interim measure. Perhaps the bemus could provide a commuter service to Dundalk/Wicklow or be redeployed to Cork



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