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Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,249 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I'm not even vaguely confused here, thanks.

    Every single fuel cell train product falls in to the solution looking for a problem box. They are all failures, and were failures the second before they launched. We have 50+ years of knowing they're failures behind us.

    I'd also question how many of those are "on offer" - I suspect absolutely zero of them could be obtained for testing outside of the companies labs; whereas multiple companies are trying the combustion option - and finding out that its a terrible idea too - outside of company labs.

    You can discount any fuel cell train as a subsidy sucking joke, not a real project. Fuel cells are a dead end technology; there won't be a market for trains, cars, trucks or buses using them going forward - which we've known for 50+ years - they aren't new!

    There might be some market for hydrogen combustion for very specific purposes; but it won't be trains either. However, there are at least slightly more serious projects trialling it - but they'll fail too. While emitting NOx.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I'd also question how many of those are "on offer" - I suspect absolutely zero of them could be obtained for testing outside of the companies labs; whereas multiple companies are trying the combustion option - and finding out that its a terrible idea too - outside of company labs.

    Sorry, but you are just completely wrong about this!!

    The first Hydrogen Fuel Cell trains entered commercial passenger service in Germany back in 2018. That line has now been completely converted to HFC operation with 14 HFC trains in operation on the line (Alstom Coradia iLint):

    A total of 27 trains are to be delivered by Alstom by next year:

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/coradia-ilint-hydrogen-trains/index.html

    https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2019/5/rmvs-subsidiary-fahma-orders-worlds-largest-fleet-fuel-cell-trains-alstom

    Stadler Flirt H2's first HFC train just entered commercial passenger service in California on the Arrow service just last month:

    https://rollingstockworld.com/passenger-cars/the-first-flirt-h2-hydrogen-train-from-stadler-enters-commercial-service-in-usa/

    These are real trains, delivered to customers and in active passenger service, not just some prototype!

    I'm not aware of any Hydrogen Combustion trains in commercial passenger services. Though I'm aware that it is something some freight operators in the US are playing with.

    Hydrogen Fuel Cells aren't a new technology, we have 3 HFC buses with BE for a few years now and there are 20 or so up in Belfast.

    Now those buses here and trains in Germany have had plenty of issues, I'm not sugar coating the issues that HFC vehicles are having, but lets not make up inaccurate nonsense, they have enough issues without doing that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,249 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The flywheel Parry People Mover is a train in actual service. Doesn't make it an actual viable technology.

    Fuel cell investment is throwing good money after bad. I'm pretty sure combustion is going to end up exactly the same.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Sure and I've my own very strong doubts about HFC trains, but lets talk about it using actual facts!

    I'm happy to discuss the issues that the HFC buses BE and Translink have or that the German HFC trains have had. But we should do so from a position of facts on the subject.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46 thosewhoknow


    Bordeaux’s trams are a little different in that they do run without wires in some parts, but not by using batteries. Instead there’s an electric rail underneath the tram which feeds it electricity.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    More information on the system used in Bordeaux here: Alstom APS - Wikipedia.

    In summary, there’s a “third rail” but it’s only energised when the tram signals that it’s over each short power-supply section. This avoids the obvious issues of embedding a live conductor into a street surface. It’s safe, but it’s more expensive than overhead wiring, and it has efficiency issues in rain. In our misty, rainy climate, I think damp would be a bigger problem than the costs, but it could still be useful for short sections where overhead wiring is difficult to install. (Barcelona uses a mix of overhead and ground power on one of its lines using version of the same trams that operate in Dublin)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 39,543 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'm sure I can't be the only person who has no problem whatsoever with Luas overhead wires in Dublin city centre. Bring it on, it's not like we didn't have a lot more tram lines in the past…

    The "mini-stonehenge" random equipment boxes all over the place (not just for Luas) are much more of an issue tbh. Overhead wires don't get in the way of pedestrians. Far too many signposts and poles around too.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Don't most European cities solve th "stonehenge" issue by putting those services in underground boxes?

    Boards is in danger of closing very soon, if it's yer thing, go here (use your boards.ie email!)

    👇️ 👇️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,517 ✭✭✭gjim


    Yes hydrogen has a potent greenhouse effect - one of the industry's dirty secrets. It's not directly a greenhouse gas (it doesn't linger because it's highly reactive) but the way it reacts with other elements of the atmosphere means it causes global warming. Most recent studies have calculated its GWP100 (100 year warming potential) at somewhere between 11 and 13 times that of CO2.

    The "so clean it produces water when burnt" is another lie or distortion - it only produces water if burned in pure oxygen which is a completely theoretical situation. When burnt in actual air, the high temperature causes nitrogen in the atmosphere to react with oxygen producing poisonous nitrous oxides. There is a proposal and (shockingly still being lobbied for) to add hydrogen to the piped natural gas mix for domestic consumption - even while analysis shows that with a 15% hydrogen mix, the amount of NOx produced by your gas cooker or boiler increases 10-fold. NOx causes a multitude of harms to human health - particularly children (growing up in a home with natural gas cooker increases a kid's chance of developing asthma by 40%); now consider the effect of multiplying the amount of NOx by 10.

    The thing to remember about hydrogen is that despite the talk of "green hydrogen", after decades with 10s of billions of investment, 97% of the hydrogen consumed is still produced by dirty means (from fossil fuels). The hydrogen industry's sales pitch is something along the lines of "ah sure start using hydrogen now and we'll figure a way of making the clean stuff economically sometime in the future but when that day comes, you'll be ready!" So any increase in hydrogen consumption today, will actually increase fossil fuel consumption (the principle mechanism used to produce hydrogen).

    The big players in the hydrogen industry are, without exception, fossil fuel companies. They're flogging old rope - there were hydrogen "boosters" trying to push hydrogen into the energy sector since the 19th century, the first hydrogen vehicle prototype was in 1810, fuel cells were commercially available in 1930s, electrolysis has been around since the turn of the 18th century, etc. There is nothing new at all about modern hydrogen tech - it's the same stuff that failed to find a use for the last 2 centuries but has now found a use as a mechanism to lever subsidies out of gullible and naive governments.

    And all this might not be a deal-breaker but, in addition, you have: massively inefficient as a form of electricity storage, horrifically dangerous to handle, expensive to store and transport, difficult to contain - it's the leakiest gas known to physics, etc.

    I generally dislike the term "greenwashing" but if there was one example where the term is 100% applicable it would be with the way the likes of Chevron and Shell are lobbying to have hydrogen projects included in "green" programs so they can get their hands on subsidies and grants.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,440 ✭✭✭Economics101


    And don't forget that even if you produce "Green" Hydrogen by electrolysis using electricity generated from wind/solar/wave power, there is a 30% loss in terms of the electricity-input versus the hydrogen-output. All that makes straingtforward electrification prima facie superior to hydrogen.

    It seems that there is a phobiia in Ireland about putting up OHLE.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,929 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Straightforward electrification is better, the problem is storing it. If you have sufficient storage then you could generate green electricity from solar in June and burn it at Christmas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    For trains I think, especially with the development of the technology in the last decade and anticipated future trajectory, battery has got to be the no brainer as a stopgap to full OHLE, you could set it up to have OH charging at each station, so you're not running it the full line every time you 'electrify' a line, and then tie those OH setups in as you install line, you could even do a phased roll out station to station of the main wires and not have to do it as a 'big bang' project in one go.

    Boards is in danger of closing very soon, if it's yer thing, go here (use your boards.ie email!)

    👇️ 👇️



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