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Irish rail fleet and infrastructure plans

14749515253

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 130 ✭✭BestWestern


    You notice the diesel fumes in Connolly more than heuston for some reason. Limerick traps the fumes too?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Apparently they are within acceptable limits in Connolly and Heuston.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,578 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    You can see the blue haze in the air in Connolly on summer days. A lot of things on Irish Rail seem to be considered acceptable - crush overcrowding isn't considered dangerous for instance - until someone dies I guess



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,790 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    it's the 29s, and the generator vans on the enterprise that are the big issue at connolly.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Gen van shouldn't be a big issue, as it's outside the canopy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,578 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    It seems some fumes get pulled in from the gen van or loco even though they're out of the cover. 29ks rattling away are definitely more of an issue though.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 19,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Are double decker trains ever a possibility here? I was on some in Italy 2 years ago.

    Someone fainted on the Dundalk-Pearse commuter I was on earlier this week because it was packed. Four carriages.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,790 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    no.

    tunnels would prohibit it, then you would have to rebuild bridges (doable but no real point)

    what might be doable is to extend platforms on the dublin suburban to allow 12 car trains but we are way away from that if it even can be done, it will certainly cost.

    the most important thing now is to insure all trains are at the capacity they need at all times.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 67 ✭✭thosewhoknow


    I don’t think tunnels are the main issue. Apart from the DSER; there is almost no operational railway tunnels in the country. The only ones I can think of are the Phoenix Park and Cork tunnels. Bridges on the other hand would require a lot of effort to reconstruct/lower the track underneath.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 526 ✭✭✭PlatformNine


    Almost definitely no. In theory everything is possible but there is a long list of problems with it that will realistically prevent it from ever happening here. The most significant problem is our loading gauge (not to be confused with track gauge) which is quite restrictive. This includes many things such as axle load, maximum train width, and most problematic maximum train height. Many bridges, tunnels, and other structures on the network are quite old and are either just tall enough to allow for OHLEs or have to be rebuilt/raised. This has already become a difficult and expensive problem just to get height enough for a single deck fleet (such as for electrification to Maynooth). Trying to then further add enough clearance for DD trains would be insanely difficult and expensive, as I doubt even much of the new infrastructure was designed to support it.

    There are also potentially problems with our OHLE height and platform height. Raising OHLE isn't necessarily a difficult task (at least not compared to many other infrastructure upgrades) but it would be somewhat disruptive and may require modifications to the rolling stock. I don't know much about OHLE heights or what changes would be required as the information can be hard to find, but considering the visual height difference in pictures and that DD sets would already be 30-40cm higher than anything we currently operate it is a consideration. As for the platform height, ours are just quite high compared to many other places (or at least mainland europe) and I am not aware of anywhere that operates DDs with such a high platform height. I am not sure if this would actually be a problem, in fact in many ways it being high is good, as it makes level boarding rolling stock much easier to design. But again, it is just another way our network is different and could affect the feasibility of DD rolling stock.

    However, even if it is possible to replace all the bridges, tunnels, etc that are too low, the amount of work it would take would be much better spent on just about anything else. There is still a number of improvements and upgrades would massively increase capacity that should be done before even considering DD trains. The most important of which are:

    • Ensuring all services run as full length: Many services including that 4-car one you were on are causing a lot of capacity issues on our network. It would go a long way if all services are extending to 164m 8-cars services for commuter sets, 164m 10-cars services for the new DART. This currently isn't possible as there simply aren't enough trains in the fleet for everything to operate at full length, but from next year new DART units will enter service and this should allow almost if not all commuter services to operate at full length.
    • Increasing frequency: This is probably the most important as currently our frequency isn't very good by international standards. DART+ should allow most lines to operate at 5-minute frequency or 12 trains per hour, although that will be shared by DARTs, outer commuters (such as those to Dundalk), and IC services. However, with the right upgrades it would be possible to exceed to 20 tph and possibly even approach 30tph such as on Paris's RER A. Now these upgrades would cost billions, but so would everything required to allow DD trains, and the frequency improvements are the long-term upgrade Dublin really needs.

    If the above still isn't enough there are other options to consider as well such as extending the platforms of our stations or building metro lines to relieve pressure on the DART line (such as along Malahide Rd or the N11). The former is anywhere from easy to very difficult depending on the station. Also, while 164m is not short for a commuter service by any means, some commuter networks do use >200m trains, and generally longer trains would reduce dwell times compared to DDs as you would have more doors per passenger. A new metro line on the other hand would be a much bigger intervention (not even getting into that we don't have a metro yet, this is just a hypothetical way you can fix overcapacity), but also the primary benefit would be to increase rail catchment. Relieving pressure from the DART would just be the benefit of being more convenient for some users than say connecting to the DART via an orbital bus. And again, while these would be expensive options, they are much better long-term interventions to cover before considering DD trains, as they would have a much greater network benefit on top of just being better value for money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 526 ✭✭✭PlatformNine


    https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/Interactive-Map

    I was having a look at IÉ's projects and investments page, and they have added a new map tool to see all the active projects and where they are located. I think that is pretty good to see and does help make the page feel a bit more modern.

    However, that is not why I am posting it, the page lists a number of projects that were not previously there. Some of these projects are things we knew were well in the works such as Ballysimon and Moyross stations.

    However, it also lists a few projects which I don't think have been mentioned other than in passing. This includes:

    • Limerick-Ennis Capacity Enhancements
    • Limerick-LJ Capacity Enhancements
    • Galway-Athenry Capacity Enhancements

    I don't think they have ever mentioned that they were actively working on these projects before have they? Eitherway It's good to see them publicly acknowledge the projects and I'll be curious to watch as information is released.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Limerick Ennis is the only new one there, fancy name for a passing loop at Sixmilebridge


    Limerick Limerick Junc is a proper project 18 miles of track



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I'll save ye a lot of time lads, here's the answer: re-double the track!!!

    image.png

    Eliminate all level crossings (some will be tricky)

    200kph max speed

    ETCS

    Electrify, or leave provision for that

    New stations in Renmore and Roscam

    There you go.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Again, there is no need for any study, we all know what to do:

    • re-double the track
    • eliminate level crossings
    • install ETCS
    • leave provision for electrificiation
    • max speed should be 200kph

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭rounders


    And some new track to allow through running services between Cork and Waterford as mentioned on the Rail Review doc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,474 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Does that line still have crossings ?

    Double track works are currently in progress.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,409 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Yes it does have level crossings.

    There is no work being done currently.

    Detailed designs haven’t even been made public yet.

    It’s several years away.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,792 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Will the restoration of the Waterford-Wexford rail service proceed? Eamon Ryan supported that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,474 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I didn't realise it had crossings because I have never seen it stop at one. Do crossings affect speed even if the train doesn't stop ?

    What is all the work on that line if not double tracking. It looks an awful lot like they are laying track ?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,409 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    No they don’t - it depends on the sight-lines. Plenty of level crossings do not have speed restrictions.

    Any track work is ongoing day-to-day maintenance on the existing track funded from the multi-annual track maintenance funding programme.

    A full redoubling will require planning, a cost benefit analysis and Ministerial approval for funding as a distinct investment project under the National Development Plan, the details of which we have yet to even hear.

    You can’t just rock up and start doing it without specific funding being provided.

    They have not even published any detailed plans yet - as such it is several years away from anything actually physically happening yet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    IMHO, re-doubling of a formerly doubled track should not need a RO or even PP.

    Okay, new stations along the line, yes, I can see the need for PP.

    But not for just new track on an existing line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,409 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I didn’t say that it would need a railway order - that will depend on the scope of the works such as whether bridges need rebuilding, but the project certainly will need separate funding.

    I don’t think that you don’t seem to grasp that anything like this needs specific funding from government out of the National Development Plan. It is not covered by day-to-day funds.

    That needs plans including a business case to be prepared to justify the works to DPER.

    We will see next month what projects are in the NDP for the next five years. If something isn’t in that, it’s unlikely to happen until the next programme.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I accept that re-doubling track requires extra funbds outside of IE normal capital budget, okay.

    It's the RO and/or PP that I think shouldn't be needed.

    Is PP required to lay a new layer of tarmac on an existing road? No.

    Improving an existing railway should not need PP and/or RO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,376 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    The change of planning rules should give IÉ sweeping powers to modernise the railway without PP. It should be allowed to make any changes required within the CIÉ land boundary. Think how many years of BS could be saved.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 13,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Moyross Station has been granted planning permission by Limerick Council.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,409 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    As I said already the need for planning / railway order will depend on what the scope of the works are, and whether they have any impact outside of the railway footprint.

    We don't know the answer to that yet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 153 ✭✭DoctorPan


    The design of which is the tricky part along with trying to deliver those requirements within the budget/funding allocated. Not as simple as a wave of a hand and away we go.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,790 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    i don't know, i hope it will but until i hear or actually see the relevant equipment on the ground doing work i wouldn't bank on it.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,790 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    i don't know if that would be doable, perhapse it might but likely would require a complete remodeling of limerick junction.

    a whole new line won't be built as it would be difficult to be fair, and i don't think you could get much good from the old mallow to waterford line even if you could get the whole alinement back.

    if something can be done to allow it then brilliant it will get my support but i'm unsure how it could be done easily.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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