Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Hi Bannie01, thanks for the very thorough response, good to discuss!

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one though :-).

I'm thinking that at this point I'm arguing for training on something on lease or similar, and then waiting on something better while already having something in-service.

I just don't like the idea of waiting more something perfect in the future, and then training.

Options:

In other words I'd prefer the country training on something now for two years, getting the capability, and then having the option after that, of transitioning onto something better that was put on order previously for purchase, whether that be Gripens or Rafales etc.

I just don't like the idea of waiting around for another two years if lucky (at least) for something new to be produced, then 2 years on top of that to then train on them. A number of countries seem to be of the opinion that there is a bit of a race going on, and that is the reason why they are arming more in the first place.

Action:

To actually have say, second-hand airframes sitting in hangers/ warehouse in Ireland and France, with others of the same type actively flying around (starting small and building up flying numbers), I think would likely be a sign of 'action' in that something is happening, would encourage more staff retention and would encourage aspiring future technicians and pilots to join knowing that there is an airframe literally sitting there waiting for them to get there hands on them.

Again, I think there is the option then to move onto to something better while having something in-hand (as long as that interim is locked-in as temporary and still relatively capable - with examples of second hand F-16s, or Mirages etc. fairly high up on the capability stakes).

But the problem is perhaps negotiations and production delays, long order books and so on extending things further and further, and nothing is in hand 5 plus years from now, and when potentially obtaining equipment is even worse.

I don't foresee that staff would be terribly put off by having to re-train from airframes they were told were an interim - but have built-up a body of experience and attracted new people in that interim time would be better overall I think.

Lastly, as mentioned above, talks with India regards the example of Mirages have apparently dragged on so nothing much may possibly come of it short-term, some nations may not want to supply Ukraine, and the idea would be that Mirages would be on short/medium-term maintenance contract so sustainment would not be a long-term problem.

Also, the supplier and trainers in France would obviously be close to hand, and with an available training and upgrades programme already in place. And again, if a Mirage interim was tied into a Rafale purchase (new or second hand), they may well be happy to facilitate Mirage needs.

'Twas only a suggestion for a short-medium term option, but above might raise some questions;

In an assumed Gripen deal, would these be 10+ years old, or 20+ years old Gripens, and if the later would they be more capable than 20+ year old Mirages (on a short-medium term lease)?

If it is decided to buy new-build, it could take 2-5 years to get a delivery, and countries such as France may not be too keen to loose their current valuable training (two-seater) and single-seat, line service fast jets again in the interim in any case (such as lease or sale), so maybe an interim lease of something else may be helpful and faster than waiting for a new-build delivery?

Are the stated 'inherent' supply and training bottlenecks to the Mirage 2000 mostly to do with spares, and would Irelands EU association and proximity to France lessen that?

Can the Mirage be both obsolete and so in demand and integral, and none of them available?

Will existing users seek the available Gripens, or some political impediment/ consideration arise?

Could introducing all personnel and facilities in Ireland to fast-jet operations experience (on fast jets of any sort) sooner rather than later really be seen as a wasted investment – even if ‘Conversion’ training has to be done later onto a newer and more permanent fast jet selection?

It feels as though it is assumed that the Gripen (and 'pre-owned'), in a long-term lease (10 years?) is the only/ favourite choice, and that all pilots/ units will need a full 2½ years spin-up time, but I'm not sure any positions can be taken absolutely. If the Gripen is really that readily available great,.. but it may not be the final choice.

I would be careful about drawing these kinds of conclusions from the Ukraine war. The main reason why we're seeing the prevalence of The Drone Wars is because Russia simply was not prepared for the type of massive aerial assault that is needed to achieve air superiority over Ukraine. If you look back at the early days of the war in 2022, it is clear that Putin hoped for a quick "coup de main" to take out Zelensky and his government and secure the capital before Ukraine was able to mount a defence. They bet everything on this and as a result, they had no aircraft assigned for SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defence) or any type of offensive counter-air missions(fighter sweeps). And to be honest, I'm not sure Russia even had, or has, the doctrine for that.

This lack of foresight/capability meant that Ukraine was able to safely move its air defences out of harm's way and redeploy them in such a way as to protect its most vital assets, its air bases and logistical hubs. In this, they have by and large succeeded, whilst at the same time succeeding to keep most of its air force operational in exceedingly challenging circumstances. Thing is, if Ukraine had faced the type of air assault that the US used against Iraq in '91 and 2003, or against Yugoslavia/Serbia during the Balkan wars, the fight would have been over within weeks, and not in Ukraine's favour.

As for Ireland, we face a fundamentally different situation. For starters, we're not at war, and unless Cork finally decides to declare its rightful independence (😉), it's unlikely that we're going to be at war within the foreseeable future. This does not mean that there are no threats to Ireland. They've been discussed on this and other threads multiple times. Whilst I do agree with you that we need a decent quantity of SAMs, as well as point defence systems to cover crucial infrastructure against drone attacks (Think Oerlikon's Skynex or Rheinmetall's MANTIS), for air policing, there is simply no substitute in my eyes for having manned fighters.

For starters, there simply are no UCAVs (Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles) available that have the type of performance characteristics that are needed for air policing/intercept missions, that is high speed/supersonic, a climb performance that would make a bat out of hell jealous, and a range that'll allow such a UCAV to intercept its target as far away from critical airspace as possible. Such systems are in development, but we're likely looking at the better part of a decade until the first test units are going to be stood up, and probably just as long again until the first export licenses will be granted.

In addition, and this is a point that I've mentioned before, any UCAV is going to be sensitive to atmospheric interference or deliberate jamming. When that happens, the UCAV in question will, at best, return to its home base automatically, and could simply be lost if the onboard electronics can't handle the situation. A manned fighter by comparison will be able to continue operating because it isn't reliant on a data link back to an operator on land. Also, a fighter pilot will be able to react to unfolding situations instantly, whilst a UCAV would experience an inevitable delay due to signal lag, not to mention that an operator back home could very well have a supervisor looking over his shoulder and second-guessing every decision of said operator. The ability to react instantly, and have a certain independence from command back home, even in this age of permanent communication, is an advantage that tends to be overlooked quite often.

Sweden has just introduced the first Gripen E into service. They are also upgrading the existing C/D models to extend there service life to at least 2035

https://euro-sd.com/2025/10/major-news/47338/swaf-accepts-first-gripen-e/

France has also increased its order for Dassault Rafale by 61 aircraft (article in French).

https://www.latribune.fr/article/economie/finances-publiques/47383027186249/la-france-devrait-commander-beaucoup-plus-de-rafale-a-dassault-aviation

Those production lines will be open for a while yet. Hopefully we can get in on one of them in the not-so-distant future

Interesting, thanks Banie01! (and thanks a couple of links re generating air power would be nice too).

Just as long as everyone isn't too disappointed when a short line of Blackburn Buccaneers appears in Baldonnel as the new air force!!

Still, the '0' status of fast jet operations in Ireland, and the speed at which every other nations are filling order books etc. is not too inspiring, and I see even the order book for Eurofighters has bloated out suddenly in the last year (big enough top-up/ replacement orders from three existing user nations). Of course some would say that is panic/arms race/ fashion/ posturing/self-fulfilling prophesy/ war mongering and profiteering and so on and so on.

But maybe if training could start here, there and everywhere for staff in anticipation of fast jets, and maybe even if a generic equipment and infrastructure shopping list could start being purchased also in anticipation of fast jets operations that would probably be helpful too, to advance things?!

Though prepare for some public criticism of above, such as the NTA and Dublin Bus when they purchased electric buses I think before the chargers and ESB substations etc. infrastructure was ready (or even fully designed), but I'd think that their approach was good, in that did what they could, as fast as they could do it…not letting themselves get caught in an inertia of chicken and egg.

Also I'm guessing the original Draken comment above was related to fast jet training and familiarisation, not to sovereign air space patrols.