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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,106 ✭✭✭DBK1


    By all means compare them in the league, but compare against the same teams. So you’ll have to wait until Munster play Bulls in SA or Leinster play Cardiff to have some sort of equality.

    If Crowley starts for Ireland in Paris against France in the 2026 6 nations and Prendergast starts in the Aviva against Wales, or vice versa, would you think it’s fair to use them 2 games as an identical measure of their (or any 2 other competing players in any other position) capabilities?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,562 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I compared them over one tournament not one game. Look this seems to be causing you some grief so I'm willing to let it die.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,865 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    thats not the reality at all though, apart from defence crowley definitely poses more of an attacking threat himself for one, both are relatively evenly matched otherwise (id have argued that SP tackling problems were overstated but i am starting to think it is a bit of a problem for him) and the consensus is that SP has a 'higher ceiling' (whatever that even means really). i dont think SP has really lit things up for ireland so far apart from the scotland game (and i personally really dont rate scotland at all these days), crowley has been a bit up and down for ireland since the start of the AIs last year, playing quite well against argentina and england when he came on but maybe not hitting the heights he is able to against italy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,106 ✭✭✭DBK1


    You didn’t compare them, you asked me too.

    It’s causing me no grief, I just showed you how the comparison being used from this weekend is not a fair comparison and I would have said the same also if it was Munster had lost a tough game and Leinster had won a handy game and people were trying to put down Crowley, and how far more knowledgeable and qualified people, ie the current Irish coaches, than you or I could ever dream of being have compared them and have obviously saw more in Prendergast than they have in Crowley.

    I know from reading your posts here for years that you’re never going to admit to being wrong, I’m sure it would cause you a serious amount of grief to do that, so yep we can let it die there if you like.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,562 ✭✭✭✭phog


    It certainly would be silly to lay it on Crowley because you know the issues that day was error after error after error from very senior players across the field

    Laying the blame on Crowley for what happened in Rome is akin to blaming the loss to the All Blacks on Crowley despite we being ahead when he was subbed off.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,562 ✭✭✭✭phog


    And that trust in Sam might well have cost them a 6Ns.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,106 ✭✭✭DBK1


    I don’t think either of them have really lit it up for Ireland. They both have different strengths and weaknesses, neither of them is a complete player at the moment but in the eyes of the coaches Prendergast is currently shading it.

    I would like to see the starting position being shared between them in the AI’s, with one starting against NZ and the other against SA.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    You have to be aware how wildly incoherent your point is at this stage right?

    You are claiming to make a comparison between two very similar situations and claiming the outcome was worse for SP (even though the outcome was actually incredibly similar but other teams performed differently) but the outcome of the game JC played in is not allowed for comparison because of external factors.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,106 ✭✭✭DBK1


    Be realistic now, we lost to France by 15 points, we scored 14 of our points in the last few mins when France were already on the bus home so in reality we lost by 29 points.

    There’s no one player can make a 30 point difference against a team as good as France were that day. Put Dan Carter in his prime on for Ireland that day and he’s not going to make a 30 point difference if everyone else on the team still plays as they did.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 593 ✭✭✭exiledawaynothere


    This will be another “fun” season on the out half selection front. All we can hope for is that we judge what we see on the pitch in a fair way and not take provincial positions.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,106 ✭✭✭DBK1


    But yet that’s what you’re doing to Prendergast regarding the France game.

    Are you starting to realise yet how your double standards are affecting your ability to be honest in your judgement of JC and SP?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭daithi7


    I agree with you Ireland were not as good in 2025, as they were in 2024. Much of the reason for this was they didn't have nearly as good an outhalf starting in 2025, unfortunately.

    Crowley basically helped rescue the game versus England , as when he came on instead of Prendergast after ~60mins, Ireland were just 13-10 ahead & struggling.

    France hammered Ireland in Dublin, 42 - 27, with the French running through Prendergast, & picking off intercepts at will.

    And, Ireland also really struggled against a very poor Welsh side in 2025. This was a real low point in Irish international performances in recent years imho, & Prendergast at 10, trying to hide away on the wing in defence, looked truly pathetic at times, tbh.

    Crowley's physicality, acceleration & top line pace are all much better than Prendergast's. Further Crowley attacks the line & offers a superior attacking & running threat that Prendergast simply doesn't. And of course, Crowley's defence & tackling is infinitely better than Prendergast's. That's night & day.

    Further, Prendergast's place kicking under pressure is highly suspect imho, e.g. how many simple conversions & penalties does he miss!? In contrast, Crowley relishes clutch kicks, & drop goals in closing stages to win games, are part of his considerable match day armoury. Leinster fans can surely attest to this!?

    On nearly every objective measure, Crowley is the superior 10, imho. This is also backed up by their respective performances & stats when playing for Ireland.

    Imho, Irish coaches may have opted for Prendergast in 2025 to try to develop a young alternative option before the next RWC, and possibly also for commercial reasons, as the IRFU have been losing money, so having a Leinster outhalf in an Irish 10 shirt might help ticket, jersey & merchandise sales, as well as with sponsorships & media coverage all of which are very Dublin oriented.

    But on a purely rugby basis, Crowley is by far the better all round international 10 currently, imho.

    Post edited by daithi7 on


  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,350 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Lol

    "Andy Farrell picks his team for Jersey sale reasons"

    🤣🤣



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,643 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    It's incredible that cats will come on a forum and straight up lie, as though we can't go and watch the games. I did a boring long breakdown for their respective contributions in the England game. TLDR Crowley had basically zero contributions to our scores that day.

    In the French match, we were this close to having a 10pt lead starting the 2nd half iirc. We collapsed when the yc happened, which is a pretty damning occurrence. Fact is, we haven't been near to the standards we set at the WC. Hopefully that changes this season.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Downlinz


    Lads, the 10 debate was ended in February by the "Suncroft Kid", haven't you been following?

    https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/eamonn-sweeney-sam-prendergast-ends-debate-on-the-ireland-no-10-jersey-with-murrayfield-masterclass/a1920528399.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,106 ✭✭✭DBK1


    Unfortunately his biggest contribution that day was missing his tackle on I think Theo Dan, which allowed Freeman in for their losing bonus point score.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,069 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Blaming Prendergast for us not winning the 6N is not remotely reasonable, no more than giving Crowley the credit for the win in 2024.

    And tbh that's the problem. Neither player is yet good enough or commanding enough to really determine the outcome of anything.

    It's easy to tear Prendergast to pieces because his tackling problem is something that is very obvious and very easy to put a label on. Crowley's deficiencies are harder to illustrate in a gif so people have made the assumption that they aren't there. The reality is he's a very good 10 but still well short of where he needs to be if he wants the Ireland jersey long term.

    It's like people banging on about Frawley deserving a go at 10. He does on his bollocks. Why not? He can tackle, he can pass, he can kick, he's strong - but he just isn't very good. Can I produce a still photo or a video clip that shows Frawley being not very good at 10? I can't, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that he's not.

    We are in a good position in that we have two very decent prospects at 10, both of whom will get plenty of opportunities and both of whom are first-choice for strong provinces. We have two years until the RWC so plenty of time to see how they develop and the Ireland coaches are going about it the right way.

    Maybe people just need to chill out a bit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭50HX


    Sensible post & would agree with all of it bar the plenty of time to RWC27 bit.

    Come 6n's we'd want be going with a definitive 1st choice imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,562 ✭✭✭✭phog


    No, not at all. I'm comparing one season against the other and as another poster has pointed out the damage was done v France when we got our arses spanked. The slow start to the tournament v England didn't help out cause so a BP win v Italy might have saved some blushes but it wouldn't have won is the tournament. A tournament we won the year before.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,069 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Well, if one or other of them can make a convincing case and end the argument between now and February, I’ll take that as a great outcome



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,315 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives


    come 6 nations, the summer tours, autumn internationals, basically all of 2026, when world cup seeding can't be worried about, I would hope there is as much experimentation as possible.

    We need to see 46 players in clutch matches.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭daithi7


    Good, so do we agree one Irish outhalf just helped his convincing case to be Ireland's first choice out half last weekend so !?

    See below for details & analysis

    20251006_190332.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,069 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Helped? Yes.

    Ended the argument? Not even close.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭50HX


    Don't think splitting game time equally (ish) between them for all of 26 puts any of them in a good position going into RWC 27.

    Hopefully one of them nails it fairly quickly & we get a 10 running the show for 10 approx test games going into world cup.

    My other hope is that we develop a 12 & a 6 pref Baird nails the spot thats now open...we know he can do it, its up to him to be consistent from now on



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,690 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Theres definitely a logic to one starting against NZ and the other against SA. Theres also a good logic to having a consistent selection at 10 and building the team around him. Be interesting to see which way the coaches go.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,034 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    I think it is easier to pick a winner when you have a Sexton or ROG. But now we have a different situation where one is established and the other has unreslised potential. I'd say they'll continue to give them both starts until they find a winner closer to the world cup

    And Baird needs to get the finger out if he's going to nail down the 6 position. He's been given scope for a few years now and hasn't really found a flow. I think the likes of Ahern and Prendergast can rightly feel annoyed that Baird has gotten so much opportunity compared to them. I don't mind who plays 6 as long as they're the best for the job. It's difficult to really say they've given the others a similar opportunity to impress. It looks like they've picked their winner.

    I want Baird to be better than the others (leinster fan) but I'm not sure we can say he is because the others have gotten so little opportunity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭50HX


    To be far to Baird he's ahead of Ahern a good bit.

    Ahern needs to belt out a good consistent club season first imo...great potential & he's off to a good start this season so lets hope he pushes on.....injuries have impact both but Baird has close to 30 caps & not being consistently good enough for whatever reason.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Baird's performances at the back end of last season, especially the URC playoffs, were at a level that I think would see him take the Irish 6 jersey long term. I don't think we've seen Ahern or Prendergast play at that level yet.

    Cormac Izuchukwu struggled to make an impact on his few appearances in an Irish shirt as of yet, but he was great for Ulster in week 1 and he's such a good athlete he's definitely still in the mix here too I think.

    Baird was pretty good in the summer for Ireland too I thought and showed some leadership, but opposition was pretty awful. He was abject against the Stormers in round 1 of the URC, but better on Saturday v the Bulls playing in the second row.

    Unfortunately for Baird - until Leinster are back to full complement of locks I think we'll need him to deputise in the second row as the Deeny/Mangan combo is too lightweight.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,866 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    Aherne just can't stay fit/injuries have happened at inopportune times in terms of the international calendar. Any time he has played he has looked excellent. I'd agree he needs to show that in more than a handful of games before going off the radar again injured.

    Cian Prendergast isn't going away either.

    Baird may have the jersey but I don't think he's leagues ahead of those two. Be interested to see if Coombes is kept in the squad, he can play 6 also.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,873 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    Coombes hasn't really played 6 in years has he? I'd be curious to see it, seems like it would be a good fit for him. It's going to be very interesting to see how the back row shakes out at Munster with all the talent coming through there.

    I'm a big fan of Prendergast personally but think he needs to add a bit to his game if he's going to be a regular international. He's not far away though, and has the raw materials, work rate, and leadership chops. We'll see if Lancaster can get that extra gear out of him, I would like to see him playing in the middle of the pitch more. Wilkins used him as an edge forward a lot which I wasn't a huge fan of.



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