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Northern Ireland 2125?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    The jurisdiction is NI not a community in belfast. If irish is an official language of the jurisdiction then you will see it everywhere in the jurisdiction. Maybe if these communities cant handle being part of the jurisdiction of NI or the UK then they can try and become their own sovereign jurisdiction.... but that would go against the whole idea of being in a union. Even the king when visiting speaks irish. These communities will say they're "unionist" but have little in common with how the union works in 2025. Rather it was back in the good old days of colonialism



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,175 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


     the 2022 policy change

    as a result of a democratic vote of a majority.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,175 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    They won't even observe the norms in GB on these matters.

    Belligerent bigoted foot stompers who demand to be appeased and want a veto because they are so insecure about their identity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,708 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Things in 1930s Germany were as a result of the democratic vote of a majority there.

    Still no excuse to do what they did to the minorities. In Belfast, the minorities are quite big.

    Just one in eight Irish street signs approved in Belfast since a controversial council policy came into force were supported by 50% or more of residents of the street.

    The SF led council must be quite insecure when they want to impose Irish on those who do not want it. Shame, they obviously do not want good community relations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,175 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


     1930s Germany 

    This isn't 1930's Germany.

    This is supposedly a modern democracy overseen by a government you say is a democratic and inclusive one.

    Nobody 'leads' the political reps at council, only their own parties who are answerable to their electorates.

    Bi-lingual signage is only an 'imposition' on the bigoted.

    Decent inclusive Unionists all over NI are getting on with their lives regardless of what is on a sign as are people all over Ireland and the UK with regard to bi-lingual signs. Except, for some reason, in the home village of Heather Humpreys of course, where they have gotten a unique derogation of the local council's legislative duty.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,708 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Bi-lingual signage is only an 'imposition' on by the bigoted.

    Fixed that for you, considering

    "Just one in eight Irish street signs approved in Belfast since a controversial council policy came into force were supported by 50% or more of residents of the street."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,175 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    So, are people in Wales, Scotland, and Ireland being 'imposed on by bigots'?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,708 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    In N.I. the Irish language as you well know has been weaponized by Republicans. eg Kneecaps and their "Every word of Irish is a bullet for Irish Freedom" controversal remarks.

    Most road signs in Scotland are not bilingual

    Here in the Republic, English is the dominant language on most signs, with Irish being less visible. In Belfast, the SF led council try to put up signs with equal size fonts, even in PUL areas. Remember

    Just one in eight Irish street signs approved in Belfast since a controversial council policy came into force were supported by 50% or more of residents of the street.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,175 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    In N.I. the Irish language

    …has official status as agreed by a democratic vote of a majority.

    How do you suggest democratic decisions are arrived at?

    Why do you believe that some people are more equal than others?

    Why do you believe that some people are more culturally sensitive than others?

    And for the craic, should local residents everywhere get to decide what goes on public signage?

    If the residents of a housing estate said they couldn't bear English on their signage would that be ok?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,175 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Constant news articles and constant pressure being put on the Irish government to begin planning.

    And from today's Irish News

    image.png


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,708 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    And still SF has not a plan for even what a U.I. would look like or who would pay for it. It could'mt even raise a candidate in the next presidential election, how embarassing.

    No wonder only 1% of people in Ireland see a U.I. as a priority. More important issues are housing, waiting lists in hospitals, cost of living, high taxes eg vat on housing which they do not have in N.I., higher vat rates than N.I., higher excise duties on alcohol etc, much higher vrt on cars etc, higher insurance etc, high vhi bills as nobody wants to have to rely on the HSE etc, high doctors fees ( free in nhs) , high a+e fees ( free in nhs) etc.

    Course it does not affect Varadker, he has a 6 figure pension from the government.

    .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,175 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Neither of those articles are about the lads and lassies under your bed Francis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,708 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Nobodies under my bed. Check your own. As I said, no wonder only 1% of people in Ireland see a U.I. as a priority. More important issues are housing, waiting lists in hospitals, cost of living, high taxes eg vat on housing which they do not have in N.I., higher vat rates than N.I., higher excise duties on alcohol etc, much higher vrt on cars etc, higher insurance etc, high vhi bills as nobody wants to have to rely on the HSE etc, high doctors fees ( free in nhs) , high a+e fees ( free in nhs) etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,175 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That is just deflection to the very public discussions going on and the pressure being applied to begin the planning process. And proof if it were needed that a UI does not belong to your nemesis SF, but to everyone.
    When planning begins every single major party in the south will be fully behind a successful pitch and Border Poll.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,708 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    "When planning begins". SF is the most vocal for a U. I. and as I said, still SF has not a plan for even what a U.I. would look like or who would pay for it. It could'mt even raise a candidate in the next presidential election, how embarassing.

    No wonder only 1% of people in Ireland see a U.I. as a priority.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,175 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No single political party will be able to produce plan or want to.

    That will be all party work in the houses of the Oireachtas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,870 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The overall problem is that the GDP of NI is a lot lower these days than the one in the ROI. General deindustrialization like in many places in the UK and also the troubles made NI economically weaker, whilst the ROI grew stronger economically. However housing, especially high rents persist as a problem.

    I think currently Ireland is not ready for unification. Even though peacefull the differences in expectations are too high on both sides with different matters having different levels of importance.

    Personally what worries me a lot in the ROI is actually neutrality and the poorly funded military. I would always prefer NATO membership, something many in the ROI would to a majority disagree upon. The attitude in the ROI of "who would ever attack us" is alien to most people in NI.

    The question of military and defence sadly rarely comes up when it comes to a United Ireland. Most in Dublin would expect that NI would accept neutrality whilst most in NI would expect Dublin to accept NATO membership.

    A debate around that subject would remain to be controversial with strong opposing positions, one side not even recognizing the other.

    NHS vs HSE is an interesting debate. Yes the NHS in NI is free, but it's essentially a free option to join a waiting list which is sometimes longer, sometimes shorter and often with not the best results in treatment. The HSE system costs more, one needs a private plan as well which may be an issue for those on a lower income, but the medical outcome on treatment seems to be better.

    Irish in schools would be another matter. Don't know if everyone in NI would be happy that their children are to learn Irish as mandatory at school? Better learn French or Spanish or German for that matter, plus in NI Irish wouldn't be part of the identity, - but Ulster Scots might be? Hard to find an answer to that one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I don’t know anyone who opposes Irish. We use an anglisised version of it every day in place names etc. what most sane people opposed is its politicisation, weaponisation and is imposition when people see it as triumphalism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    A very interesting post outlining a few more dilemmas for the UI fantasists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    So looking at it objectively. Who is politically weaponising the language. Political parties who want NI to have an irish act like the ROI and the way other parts of the UK like Wales and Scotland have a language acts for thier indigenous languages or parties that want NI to be different to the rest of Ireland and Britain and have no language act for the indigenous language?

    Anyone looking at this objectively are well aware who are politicaly weapoising the language.



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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    I support an Irish Language Act. I would say though that the original Conradh na Gaeilge, pre independence, did have a fair number of Northern Protestants in it, until it adopted a Republican position. This led an exodus of Unionists.

    As a supporter of a United Ireland, I nonetheless think that a more neutral position might help persuade some Unionists not to opposed an ILA. There are some Unionists involved in the Irish language movement, like the sister of the late loyalist PUP leader David Ervine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,870 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Overall I would say that a U I would be the logical choice for the future, after all it is one island so why shouldn't there be one country.

    On the other side I also strongly think why something should be united if positions are too different. And if positions are too different why not keep the status quo and make people also feel that keeping the status quo is completely ok?

    To me personally NATO membership matters strongly, it would personally be the most important issue. I also feel that in the ROI military and defence is totally inept to do any kind of military task. An air force with no fighter jets, a navy which is barely a coast guard and an attitude of "Who would ever attack Ireland?".

    In the ROI there are parts of society which absolutely dislike NATO membership to the point that we would never ever agree. In the ROI there isn't even the slightest consideration that NI enjoys NATO membership and NATO protection in the event of necessity. People in the ROI would believe that NI would be "quietly absorbed" into a neutrality, which is in the end a fake neutrality, nothing like Switzerland, considering that the RAF is often seen over the skies of the ROI.

    So why should we unite something if differences are already that strong?

    Why not keep the status quo, make the border as transparent as possible, make NI and the ROI as connected as possible but keep things still separate?

    This would also be a logical choice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,175 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Excuse the pun but the writing is on the wall in Belfast and across the North.
    As Breen points out here bleating about 'imposition' is a nonsense, there were more than enough chances to engage and consult but Unionism dug the heels in and wouldn't.

    Irish signs no more “impose” that language on people, as the DUP claims, than English signs on our streets and buildings “impose” that language on Irish speakers.

    The party’s contention that unionists are being “ignored” is equally untrue. There was a lengthy public consultation period last year: from August 22 to November 28.

    There were seven public consultation events held at various locations across the city and online. Sources from a range of parties in City Hall say private approaches were also made to unionist councillors on the Irish language draft policy but they wouldn’t engage.

    Out of 60 members of the council, 17 oppose it.

    Belfast has changed politically and demographically. No amount of protesting — no matter how loudly — is going to change that.

    Only one of the city’s four MPs is a unionist — East Belfast MP Gavin Robinson. The number of unionist councillors is likely to decline after the next local government election. The power dynamic once in play in City Hall is never coming back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,175 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I think some people have a totally wrong grasp of what 'Unity' or a UI will be.

    Look at the present UK Union NI is in, or Ireland, there isn't a Unity where people agree on everything, in a UI people will still have to fight their corners, there will still be the growth and wane of political parties and ideas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,870 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I've seen this documentary here in the link below. All good points which were raised, but not a single word on military and defence and NATO membership. I presume everyone assumes that unity would mean that NI is quietly absorbed into neutrality of the ROI.

    I would honestly like an Ireland firmly within NATO, and if the ROI should persist on neutrality, at least military and defence capabilities should be to the tune of Switzerland. Currently I see none of this happening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,175 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    We definitely need to spend on our defence forces, there is support for that.

    And we need to have a credible threat to convince people that joining NATO is neccesary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,870 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Just look at Poland. Another country with a troubled past, occupied by hostile forces. Regardless of military spending (and they do spend a lot in Poland) they can't handle the threats from Russia by themselves.

    Ireland is easy prey and just considering the "luck of the Irish" as a defence strategy.

    No fighter jets, no navy with surface to air capabilities, no primary military radar system, and an out in the open attitude of "who would attack us", constantly speaking about "neutrality" whilst the British RAF is doing the job.

    This would all be a total no go for any kind of Irish unity between NI and the ROI.

    I am by far no military fascist here. Ireland doesn't need submarines or aircraft carriers, but Ireland desperately needs a primary military radar system, around 20 to 25 fighter jets, Saab Gripen and better, and a navy with surface to air capabilities in order to be credible about defence. And that all preferably as part of NATO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,175 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Russia is a credible threat to Poland. They don’t represent the same level of threat to us.
    We don’t need to spend NATO levels of our annual budgets.

    Yes we need to have properly resourced Defence Forces.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,870 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I wouldn't precisely see it the same way. Dublin's position on military and defence spending also won't change much, and that doesn't even cover a question on neutrality vs NATO. Remember the Russian naval exercise off the coast of Irish waters? It doesn't take a Russian ship to get close to Ireland that long either.

    Fact is NATO and even the US under Trump, would still be ready to help defend even if the smallest part of NATO territory was under attack.

    Sure, Poland and the Baltics are more at threat than Ireland. You may disagree with me, but if Russia was to launch some kind of surprise attack on Ireland just to capture and Island in the Atlantic, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

    We may have grave differences of opinion here, but I find such a scenario not impossible or implausible, especially since Dublin is constantly fostering the "who would attack us culture" and openly postponing every real military investment.

    They would most likely not even consider a primary military radar to cover the ROI, and hope the public and the media conveniently forgets everything about that.

    To me that's all one big reason for NI to stay as part of the UK, part of NATO.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Your position is a perfectly credible one, one I'm not totally opposed to.....but I'm not convinced it is a particularly significant deciding factor for a substantial number of people. I'd imagine the hardline entrenched views on NATO membership most heavily align with existing hardline views on Unification and in particular on the Unionist side with the associated emotional connection to the British army.

    I am open to being proven wrong, but I dont believe there are a statistically significant number of people who feel that strongly about NATO membership but are also ambivalent enough on the constitutional question that conceding that would convince them to vote for Unification.

    I'm not saying there aren't any who hold this position, but I certainly don't believe there are enough that it would move the needle on voting intentions.



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