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Donald Trump the Megathread part II - Mod Warning updated in OP 12/2/26

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,626 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Who is the deciding authority on what is and is not a lawful order? The President and Hegseth have already shown they will fire anyone who challenges them, as today's embarrassment laid clear. Will you have authority to countermand an order you deem illegal? Will a private in your unit have that capacity? It's a recipe for chaos.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,642 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    And…who defines what's 'politically correct,' since that's the grandaddy of all vague terms used by the right, like "WOKE" and "DEI."

    I'd be embarrassed to be in a meeting like that where the CiC and SecDef (SecWar?) openly insult the military.

    Just degrading, like so much of this administration.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,418 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    The memo you published earlier says that it is not up to individuals to question orders.

    So the rank and file need to assume an order is lawful. So are you expecting generals, who have just been threatened will firing if they disagree, to start questioning?

    What has happened to every single person that tried to argue with Trump? He either fires them or attempts to humiliate them.

    The path is clear yet you seem oblivious to it. He called all the generals back to tell them the new order of things. Not a discussion. Not a transfer of ideas.

    You think the law will put a stop to anything Trump wants? He jues repeatedly about the need to foing something, Portland being the latest example, and yet you seem to think he won't take the next step.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 31,638 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    This speech is insane. He may have done the US a favour making it in front of the Army generals, even the MAGA generals surely cannot believe he is fit to run the country's armed services. Can they?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,843 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I, and certainly no private, have no authority to 'decide' an order unlawful. That is an authority reserved solely to judges, who I would submit have a little more training and experience in such matters. However, the Manual for Courts Martial has laid out the mechanism which prevents the chaos you fear.

    We have an obligation to refuse to carry out orders known to be unlawful. Those would be things which judges have already ruled upon in precedent, or which are already defined in law/regulation.

    We have the personal choice to refuse to carry out laws we suspect may be unlawful. However, we had better be pretty damned sure as orders have a presumption of lawfulness and are disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. There is no protection for refusing and getting it wrong as decided by a judge, regardless of how well-intentioned. To help commanders in this determination, they have the services of assigned military lawyers to advise them. Obviously the higher up the military chain, the more experienced and presumably knowledgable the lawyers. By the time you get to my level, it's gone through several levels of command all of which have lawyers available to them (at my level, I'm sufficiently low I don't have a lawyer assigned to me, I would have to reach up to higher level. In my case, there are at least three echelons of lawyers above mine).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭Detritus70


    You must understand that most of us don't share your optimism and are quite worried. Even if we don't live in the US. You have unshakable belief in the system and I hope to any given deity you're right.

    Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,418 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Rather than simply look if a line has been crossed, look at the direction of travel.

    He very clearly wants to be a dictator and is running the county on that basis.

    He has neutered the other, supposedly equal, branches of government. He is actively attacking any opponent and is now authorising the military to use full force on US citizens.

    And still the army stands by and says 'well, if it was illegal, somebody somewhere would deal with it'

    The country you put your life on the line to defend is being taken over from within. And none of those that were so worried about socialism, or gun rights, or federal overreach, has even muttered the slightest question.

    He has literally threatened the top brass of the military today and nothing will be said. Because everyone is too scared, too sure that it will only impact others, too comfortable with they have that they dare not put it in jeopardy, to do anything about it.

    And if you think Trump is going to stop here I have a bridge to sell you.

    Laws? The man doesn't care about laws and his supporters don't care either. The media is completely subservient. Too focused on winning amongst themselves that chasing the truth or holding power to account.

    The supreme court has indicated, and shown, that it is willing to review any law that get in his way.

    The only thing standing in his way are the Democrats. So good luck with that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,098 ✭✭✭RickBlaine


    I can understand at some fundamental level that members of the armed forces should look fit and healthy, but at the level of general or admiral, it is less about physical fitness and more about tactical and strategic intelligence. And if Hegseth is so worried about a healthy appearance, he should be equally concerned that the country's commander-in-chief looks like a mutated pumpkin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,307 ✭✭✭dogbert27




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,464 ✭✭✭✭extra gravy


    Funny to hear the clowns denouncing political correctness when they've spent the last two weeks policing what people can and can't say about the dead podcaster. Hypocrisy comes naturally when you have no principles.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,626 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Your argument rather falls apart when Trump and Hegseth have been actively firing and replacing JAG officers, along with other senior leadership. That's without the plain fact that the law has no bearing on the administration, given Scotus is happy to rubber stamp any action of theirs.

    Your entire position hinges on a presumption that legal norms exist and be followed. You hope those above you will have done the right thing and that any order you get will be legal, as those below you will also. It's a foundation built on sand. The courts aren't going to come to the rescue.

    Post edited by AbusesToilets on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,686 ✭✭✭✭fullstop


    So if trump decided that you were to be sent into a democratic city with shoot to kill orders for ‘agitators’ (i.e. anyone protesting peacefully against the regime, but he has classified them as Antifa, and, therefore, terrorists) and you knew that they were peaceful protestors, would you shoot them? You know that they are peaceful, but the command has reached you through however many levels…



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Pete Hegseth declared an end to "ideological garbage," citing concerns over climate change, bullying, "toxic" leaders and promotions based on race or gender as examples.

    "He also took aim at the Pentagon's inspector general - which is investigating his conduct - saying the office "has been weaponised, putting complainers, ideologues and poor performers in the driver's seat."

    He also criticised the look of overweight troops, saying: "It's completely unacceptable to see fat generals and admirals in the halls of the Pentagon."

    He said all fitness tests would be set to male benchmarks only and emphasised the importance of grooming standards.

    "The era of unprofessional appearance is over. No more beardos," Mr Hegseth told the audience, which sat in silence.

    ....

    As he departed for the event, Mr Trump told reporters that he would be meeting military leaders and would fire them on the spot if he did not like them."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,052 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Maximum lethality against enemies 'both foreign and domestic'

    Its so **** obvious what they're planning to do.

    Ban billionaires



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 31,638 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    So Trump wants pretty battleships moving in sync, and Hegseth wants nicely turned out soldiers - next step is making sure they are all the same height and of acceptable looks - then presumably it will occur to Trump that the ceremonial troops entertaining him in the UK looked really good, and US troops should go to war in tailored red wool tunics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,982 ✭✭✭yagan


    Imagine being a soldier with orders to kill your relations and friends in your home city just because your president is a snowflake.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,151 ✭✭✭Lirange


    “He also took aim at the Pentagon's inspector general - which is investigating his conduct - saying the office "has been weaponised, putting complainers, ideologues and poor performers in the driver's seat.”

    Sounds like he’s describing himself.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Republicans refuse to swear in newly elected Congressman in Arizona. They say they will do so when the House returns to normal session. This was during a pro-forma session (a sort of halfway house where there is a token session but not a full one).

    This deprives the Discharge Petition of its last vote needed to force a vote on releasing the Epstein files. Only 3 Republicans, Nancy Mace, Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert have signed the petition.

    It's also hypocritical because Republicans swore in the Florida Republicans that were elected earlier this year in by elections (called special elections in the US).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭Apple Dumpling


    With little to no push back from an opposition party that is spineless without a leader or anyone who looks like they want to become a leader of an opposition.

    The Democrats are just rolling over and letting MAGA take control and rewrite Americas past and write it’s future in fascism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,983 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Well Manic, Nurenberg set the bar. The onus is on you to use your conscience and common sense.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,686 ✭✭✭✭fullstop


    He didn’t say they were a loathsome piece of sh1t



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,210 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    I just caught a few bits of hegseths speech? I suppose you could call it, maybe lecture or drunken ramblings possibly. What an absolute moron he is. Their country is crumbling and they’ll goose step inline with their masters. I suspect this latest bit of nonsense has come from the hack of the military parade, didn’t meet herr Trumps standards.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,194 ✭✭✭nachouser


    It's grand, we're just applying an Irish lens to things that are totally fine to the military in the US. Follow orders and the chain of command, even if the SecDef is an alcoholic sex-pest and the Commander in Chief is, well, just one of those things.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,052 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    And yet the US army commits war crimes in every conflict..…

    The extra judicial killings in the 4 Venezuelan boats destroyed in the past weeks aside, we have some more examples...

    Kunduz hospital bombing, Afghanistan — Oct 3, 2015
    An AC-130 attacked Médecins Sans Frontières’ trauma hospital, killing 42. MSF called it a “war crime” (protected medical facility hit despite deconfliction).

    Raqqa siege, Syria — June–Oct 2017

    Amnesty International and Airwars documented 1,600+ civilian deaths from U.S-led coalition strikes and artillery, alleging possible violations of distinction/proportionality.

    Mosul al-Jadida airstrike, Iraq — Mar 17, 2017

    U.S. strike caused 100–200+ civilian deaths in a single incident.

    Baghuz strikes, Syria — Mar 18, 2019

    New York Times reporting described bombs that killed dozens of women and children

    Kabul drone strike, Afghanistan — Aug 29, 2021

    A U.S. drone killed aid worker Zemari Ahmadi and nine family members

    Haditha killings, Iraq — Nov 19, 2005

    U.S. Marines killed 24 civilians. Several prosecutions followed; most charges were dropped and no murder convictions resulted,

    Do you think lawyers signed off on all of these?

    Ban billionaires



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Trump says if he doesn't get the Noble Peace Prize it will be "an insult to our country".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,898 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I cannot wait for the time if and when a new admin is in place and fire all these dickheads on the spot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,558 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Lets face it, Trump has perverted the U.S justice system completely. He has SCOTUS on his side, he has the AG and the prosecutors there as well. The U.S military is obliged by its oath to the constitution to obey the orders of the president.

    I don't see the U.S military justice system as having a leg to stand on as the organisation it belongs to is now commanded by Trump, even though supposedly, theoretically, it could find anyone charged with not obeying an order not guilty of the charge on the grounds that the order was illegal. The Military Justice system does not have an equal or higher standing than the Civil Justice system, it is subservient to the Civil Justice system as the U.S is based on a Civil Administration system, not a Military one.

    The crunch factor in that is that the formulator of the order the U.S military was given to obey was Trump, the President, not Hesgeth the Sec of War. Hegseth is only the boy in the Pentagon, Trump is the C in C. The "what happens next - squeaky bum time" may be coming close for the U.S.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,757 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    There must be thousands (complete guess, otoh) of current and ex US military more qualified than Hegseth for that job.

    Then there's all the civilians who have have held high level positions in massive US companies (may or may not have past military service as well).

    I think that was a traditional source for that position too, people like Rumsfeld, McNamara for example.

    Fox infotainment hosts who finished their service at low-ish to middling officer rank is a new departure and is bound to bring some new thinking to the US military.

    "DEI" (as the yanks have it) in action there for you I suppose!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,786 ✭✭✭Lewis_Benson




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,898 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Trump and Miller don't want qualified. They want yes men.



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