Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

saabsaab · 22-09-2025 07:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123830800#Comment_123830800

Well a few Gripens and some second tier jets for training and support wouldn't be that bad.

Gary kk · 22-09-2025 07:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123841139#Comment_123841139

Ah here you definitely have skin in the game...

jonnybigwallet · 22-09-2025 11:42PM

That's an interesting suggestion.. say 4 gripens and 8 FA50's. Handy auld fleet compared to what we have..

sparky42 · 23-09-2025 12:05AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123841975#Comment_123841975

Yes, lets end up with 2 aircraft with different systems/supplychains/training systems for the benefit of a relatively marginal upfront price saving.

jonnybigwallet · 23-09-2025 12:18AM

WTF not? It's supposed to be a Air Force. They've already got multiple types…bring it in or put the suggestion forward. Them FA 50 can be got on short delivery whil awaiting the Gripen.

Ozymandius2011 · 23-09-2025 12:23AM

I think assuming we wont be invaded because we haven't been since independence is the same mistake Norway and Belgium made after independence. Belgium was invaded in 1914 and 1940, and Norway was invaded in 1940. Unlike WW2, Ireland now stores a lot of American data which the Russians would be interested in. We are also a potential backdoor to the rest of the EU and UK.

sparky42 · 23-09-2025 12:36AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123842027#Comment_123842027

Why not is simple, the upfront sticker price of a purchase is minor compared to the generation of support packages/training/upgrades/replacements. Splitting any potential buy ends up with the worst of all worlds in every respect.

thomil · 23-09-2025 01:18AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123842027#Comment_123842027

The Air Corps/Air Force does operate several different types, that is true. But each of these types has a well-defined role. You can't send a PC-9 out to do maritime patrol, and likewise, a C-295MPA generally sucks as a close air support platform. Going for a split purchase as you suggested would create a complete mess of supply chains, require two independent and incompatible stockpiles of spares, two different types of mission planning and simulator equipment, and require two different pilot training pipelines, all for no discernible benefit and providing the Air Corps/Air Force with two types of aircraft for the same role, but without the benefits of a single fleet. It would still take years to get such a fighter squadron off the ground, and it'll still only barely be a bare-bones capability.

As it stands, it'll be a pretty big push to get even a single squadron operational. With the prospect of a small initial fighter force and, if we're honest, no real prospect of any follow-up orders, the best course of action is to go for a single type and fight like hell to get as many of those as possible. And whilst I've so far been in the "Gripen or better" camp, quantity does have a quality of its own, and if that means downscaling to the F/A-50 to get some more airframes out of the budget, that would be a price (grudgingly) worth paying in my eyes.

jonnybigwallet · 23-09-2025 07:24AM

Definitely agree with you that a decent number of FA50 block 70 would hit the right spot.

Gary kk · 23-09-2025 09:22AM

Makes more sense than the Griphen, well for Irelands needs. It has upto 30% more range than the earlier models. It's also modular like the Griphen.

Actually there's very little valid argument against it

sparky42 · 23-09-2025 10:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123842452#Comment_123842452

If the argument is that a Gripen purchase will take too long, then the Philippines are only getting their block 70 over the coming 5 years.

Tabnabs · 23-09-2025 10:10AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123842031#Comment_123842031

Let's not get carried away with ourselves here. Ireland will absolutely never be invaded by Russia, unless the entire European NATO military force has been destroyed. Ireland is the largest fixed aircraft carrier in the North Atlantic. We'll have been occupied by NATO forces long before crazy Ivan is steaming down the west coast.

The British were just about to invade Norway in 1940 to secure their ports and raw materials but the Third Reich beat them to it.

We need the aircraft to patrol our skies from Russian incursions and this is a historic threat rather than a possible future scenario. What's interesting to watch now is SwedishAF Gripens are being deployed to Poland and are currently training to verify capabilities and procedures to down drones. Just the type of thing we may also require them to do.

Hamsterchops · 23-09-2025 10:23AM

We're a small country so why not purchase some small 2nd hand Hawk T1 jets from the RAF/Red Arrows. Nothing too fancy, but at least we'd have jets instead of turboprops. Strap some (dummy) sidewinders to the wings to scare off the Ruskies 🛩️

Gary kk · 23-09-2025 10:31AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123842608#Comment_123842608

Would the griphens be here much sooner that 5/7 years? Come on have you seen how slow our government and military are at making a decision.

sparky42 · 23-09-2025 10:38AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123842676#Comment_123842676

so in all ways unable to do anything?

Gary kk · 23-09-2025 10:39AM

Decisive they are not !

ricimaki · 23-09-2025 11:23AM

Unless we're getting second hand aircraft that are currently sitting in storage, they're going to take several years to be delivered no matter what we order.

Remember, we still don't have an air base that can be used for these aircraft yet. Even if it's decided Shannon will have an air base, it will need to be funded and constructed (and probably planning permission, delays, court orders…) before we take delivery of any more than the small number of aircraft that Baldonnell could temporarily fit

sparky42 · 23-09-2025 11:44AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123842940#Comment_123842940

Think defence related construction doesn’t have the same hoops as everything else.

Hamsterchops · 23-09-2025 11:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123842760#Comment_123842760

At least it would be an airborne presence that could (in theory) chase and intercept intruders into Irish airspace. I presume the current propeller planes can't cat't do much at all due to their low speed.

source · 23-09-2025 12:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123843034#Comment_123843034

the hawk wouldn't be any more capable than the PC9m we currently have. The Hawk is a subsonic jet aircraft and is not capable of interception. Which is why no air force uses it for that task.

It is a basic jet trainer, nothing more.

banie01 · 23-09-2025 12:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123843219#Comment_123843219

The Hawks are also already beyond their original service life, overdue for replacement and suffering from ongoing spares and serviceability issues.

Regarding the FA50, there are plenty of posts earlier in this thread as to it's unsuitability. Nothing really has changed in that regard. Of the current operators of combat coded variants, Philippines, Malaysia, Poland and South Korea, they all operate dedicated Fighter and Interceptor aircraft, with the FA50 operated in ground attack and secondary fighter roles.

All of those countries have since inducting the FA50 chosen different aircraft for subsequent orders. 3 of whom who have a need for significant overwater ops. Yet who haven't been swayed by the "cheap" option to buy more.
Even the original Korean F50 effort has been abandoned as the KF21 offers more capability for a similar price.
Now it may find a buyer elsewhere, but if it's not in service with the home nation's air force?
It shouldn't be even considered for service in ours, given our luck with being a lead introduction nation.

Larbre34 · 23-09-2025 01:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123843034#Comment_123843034

We've had this conversation down the years, but its worth reminding everyone.

The wrong solution is worse than no solution at all.

Applying the fallacy that jet trainers would do the job, is not something we should ever let the government try and fool people with.

What we need, is aircraft that can operate a Quick Reaction Alert. Planes that can operate fast enough and for long enough to get from a single base, to any location in Irish territory or EEZ, in time to intercept any violator, and get home again safely.

Planes like the Hawk aren't even fast enough to match an airliner going at full tilt, let alone fly an intercept course to meet them.

And even if by some stroke of luck they could catch them 3 or 400 kms off shore, they wouldn't have the fuel reserve to get home again.

Trainers, of any sort, will simply not do the job we need doing, and they should only be bought to replace the PC9s, not to try and fool ourselves as a nation that our skies are now secured.

thomil · 23-09-2025 01:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123843034#Comment_123843034

Don't get me wrong, I like the Hawk. It's a good-looking and surprisingly capable aircraft. But it's worthless for air policing. It lacks the sensor suite and, more importantly, the energy to conduct a proper intercept. Speed and distance are crucial when it comes to any type of intercept, any unknown radar contact should be intercept and identified as quickly as possible, and as far away from populated areas or busy airspace as possible. For that, you need a radar that's powerful enough to lock onto an unknown target, ideally some sort of data link capability to whatever command post is coordinating the intercept, and an engine/airframe combination that allows for supersonic speeds and a rapid rate of climb. After all, you don't just need to reach the target, you need to take up position around it to identify it and attempt to establish communications. That means that you'll have to fly a wide curve to get behind it, whilst at the same time accelerating to catch up with it.

Now, to be fair to your argument, there's actually a light combat variant of the Hawk, the Hawk 200, that does have as limited anti-air capabilty. It's in use in Indonesia, Malaysia and Oman, carries the same AN/APG-66 radar as early model F-16s and can carry the likes of the AIM-9 Sidewinder or even AIM-120 AMRAAM. So it actually has the sensor side covered. However, it's still just a sub-sonic airframe with a relatively weak engine, meaning it can't reach the kind of speeds needed for an interception away from sensitive areas. Plus, only 62 aircraft were ever built, so there's not a large spares base. For what it's worth, Malaysia has already started to replace its Hawk 200 force with the KAI F/A-50, a type that has been mentioned on this thread and is far more suited to actual air policing operations, and I wouldn't be surprised if Indonesia will follow suit.

Randycove · 23-09-2025 01:55PM

coincidentally, I was looking at the Aeralis proposition, which is being touted as a likely replacement for the Hawk (and the French Alpha jet potentially) and their concept of a suite of aircraft would suit Ireland perfectly. The problem is, it is all just talk at the moment.

sparky42 · 23-09-2025 02:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123843494#Comment_123843494

They’ve been trying to get someone to pay for that for years if not longer at this stage, we’d be utterly insane to touch it, even if they could make good on their PR.

Gary kk · 23-09-2025 02:25PM

Wait a whole has changed with the block 70. Alot if the issues that were raised previously have been addressed.

KF 21 is a lot more expensive that than FA 50. What Korea needs in an airforce is completely different to what Ireland needs.

banie01 · 23-09-2025 06:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123843598#Comment_123843598

The most recent quantifiable pricing for the FA50 Block70 is the Phillipines buy of 12 for $700million, approx $60 million per airframe
The most recent pricing for the KF21 is the South Korean buy of 20 in June 2025 for $1.8 billion, or $90 million per airframe.
That isn't the whole story, though, as the KF21 price includes the amortisation of a portion of the R&D costs and production line set-up costs for mass production, and the future price of the aircraft is expected to drop for subsequent production batches.
Versus Gripen NG at $110million and the f16 at the latest price if one pares out weapons and support at in and around the same price (F21 MRCA estimate was $100million but, Peru offer seems to blow past that price).

However, it is important to note that the Philippines, although buying FA50 block 70, are pursuing the purchase of more advanced aircraft for their air policing & interception roles.
Currently, they have offers on the table from Lockheed & Gripen.
Similarly, Malaysia are also pursuing more capable aircraft for their own AP & interception needs.

The FA50 offers the potential for mass, particularly when supported by more capable aircraft and/or air dominance, allowing its less capable airframe to be fully exploited.
The Poles, Koreans, Malaysians and Filipinos are all using it or intending to use it in secondary, ground attack and supporting roles, rather than in a primarily air combat/air policing role.
In our case?
Whilst we do have a need for air policing and interception?
We have less of a need for the secondary capabilities offered by the FA50 or other LiFT platforms that are being proposed.

I'd argue that our need is as close to a "pure" interceptor as any nation has identified since the 1960s.
An airframe that reaches 40000ft plus can transit significant overwater distance at transonic and supersonic speeds and can operate safely amid relatively spartan C4isr operational support.
Without AWACS, without GCI and with enough sensor power to ensure reliable radar and situational awareness when operating in a two-ship formation at the edge of our primary radar coverage.

The FA50 doesnt fit tha need, even its developed block 70 form IMHO.

thomil · 23-09-2025 06:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123844309#Comment_123844309

I get where you're coming from. However, there are two things worth pointing out in this regard.

First, the age of the pure interceptor is over. Done. Finito. Fertig! The vast majority of fighter aircraft designed since the dawn of the 1980s were designed with multi-role capability from the start.One could argue that the F-22 was the last real interceptor aircraft, given how heavily it was focused on stealth and air to air capabilities. It's anti-ground capabilities are anaemic by comparison. Compare that to the Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen, Mitsubishi F-2, and pretty much every other combat aircraft that was designed in that time frame. Hell, even the much-critizised F-35 is heavily weighted towards multi-role.

Second, Ireland is not in a position to go for the best possible solution. Between widespread apathy and NMP (not my problem) syndrome in the government and civil service, a general aversion to anything military in large parts of the population, and financial constraints imposed by a world economy that's in an uncontrolled spin, an ideal solution as per your outline might simply not be available, certainly not in the numbers needed to provide even a baseline capability. Given this situation, I'd rather have an aircraft that does 80% of what we need and is available in the appropriate numbers for said baseline capability, rather than an aircraft that ticks every box, but of which we have so few that they're nothing more than a backdrop for photo opps. The F/A-50 would fit the former description as far as I'm concerned.

roadmaster · 23-09-2025 06:37PM

i suppouse the upside to going with the F/A 50 based in shannon would be servicing as there is Hyundai dealerships in both Ennis and Limerick

sparky42 · 23-09-2025 06:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123844389#Comment_123844389

Counterpoint, any purchase is a once in a generation spend, forget the idea of buying top up airframes or newer blocks, therefore is buying something that reaches 80% of what's needed now still going to meet that 80% capability level in 30 years time when they might be replaced? I mean the suggestion being that the Block 70 solves some of the issues, however on a quick google, there are none in service as yet, and even when they are, it might be years afterwards before actual operational rates and capabilities are determined.

So what, the suggestion is that we buy something that might reach 80% of what we need, but nobody will be using it for years anyway before we know if it meets that 80%, maybe it doesn't?

If the spend is to be made, then the marginal upfront costs between the "80%" and the "100%" shouldn't play into things, or rather the sticker price shock is going to happen anyway, so why cut corners?

Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Comments