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AI Success Rates

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,437 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    When can cows in middle of cycle post AI be transported? I've got a few here that I'd like to move to better grazing about 12miles away. They are ranging from 2 - 41 days since being served. Is there a tipping point beyond which you're 'safe' to move them?

    Can I move them now? I would have thought that the movement to better grass would be less stress on them than remaining on the poorer grass for a few more weeks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭Amateur Farmer


    deleted

    Post edited by Amateur Farmer on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭Amateur Farmer


    Deleted

    Post edited by Amateur Farmer on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭Amateur Farmer


    A few things that I consider important in relation to using AI

    1. Next years conception rates depend on this years plan
      1. Calving difficulty - Not all cows have the same pelvis, so match a cows ability to calf with the most suitable bull
      2. Cows that repeat are more likely to repeat next year, cull them or if you can use a stockbull
      3. Double bolus twice a year
      4. A consistent and quality diet helps
      5. I don't like cows to be too fat
    2. Post calving/Pre breeding - Preparation for breeding starts the minute a calf is born
      1. Record difficult calvings - if a cow has a hard calving maybe use a bull instead of AI
      2. Record cows slow to clean & treat with a washout/Metricure
      3. Pre Breeding scan
    3. When handling keep cows and people calm, no rushing and shouting at cows, cortisol levels don't help conception
    4. AI'ing later is always better than too early - sexed semen should be 6 hours later than conventional
    5. If a cow repeats I generally use a straw from a different bull the second time
    6. If a cow has repeated in the past I might AI the cow with two different bulls - I don't believe semen 'competes' but semen has to undergo a process when it is deposited in the cow and this can happen at different rates, using two bulls can sometimes extend the timeframe when viable semen is present and increase conception rates. Also some bull's semen may be more fertile than other.
    7. Fertility is hereditary
    8. So is infertility……
    9. If you are serious about conception rates learn how to AI yourself, if your numbers are large consider doing the manual palpation part of the scanning training - It is amazing how much information you will get about a cow by being able to palpate her.
    10. The two fundamentals with AI are
      1. The semen must go in the RIGHT PLACE (AI skills)
      2. The semen must be deposited at the RIGHT TIME (Heat detection)
    11. Knowing the onset of heat is vital - a cow going out of heat can look a lot like a cow coming into heat, so you need to be monitoring twice a day and keeping record of cows activity to be able to determine what stage of heat she is in - It is easy to say a cow is bulling but for AI to work you need to know when she should be bulled.
    12. Onset of 'standing heat' is the most important behaviour to determine

    A bull works 24 hours a day and seven days a week at his job…….

    Post edited by Amateur Farmer on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,646 ✭✭✭148multi


    I would move them immediately, a full belly is the most important thing, then are cow keeping a regular cycle or any discharges. Keep heifers of cows that calve in the early part of the season, as said genetics play a role. Also watch for double suckling, can be very hard on a cow. Worked as a tech and can only remember two heifers that I couldn't get through the cervix fully, poor handling of straws can damage them, but I seen the ceo of one AI company not defrost the straws when serving his own cows and he swears it didn't affect fertility, this is a man who's a stickler for how his cows are managed.

    I inject with multimin any late cyclers and give meal feed. Also think the dry period management has a big influence on fertility.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,437 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    That's a lot of good information there - thanks for taking the time to put it all together.

    The bulls I use are all easy calving and rarely need any assistance. It's one of the main selection criteria I have as the day job means I might not be able to assist, although fortunately that has not been a problem.

    I have made the decision that anything that doesn't hold to 2nd service will be culled. I do tend to switch bulls between services. Sometimes I'd use a fertility mix too - although it has failed 1/2 times this year. This year I've started using a mineral drench and I do think it has improved conception. However, I'll admit that I've negated this by holding them on the home farm until they hit 40 days since last service. This has meant I'm running tight on grass.

    I was told not to move/stress them beforehand. That's why I've been keeping them on tight going - which I know is bad for hold rates. What is everyone's thoughts on moving cattle before the 24 day window has expired?

    TBF - when handling it is very sedate - the cows know the drill and there is no roaring and shouting and use of the blue stick.

    In regards to AI'ing myself - I'm not sure that it is feasible for a 10 cow herd. For heat detection we use scratch cards. Find them really good. Cows are monitored x2 daily. I think we're not too bad at catching the heats, I think the issue is either the cows and/or not keeping them on consistent grazing block. Overall this year there have been 16 serves: 7 holds; 5 fails; awaiting 4.

    Part of my problem is that the farm is split across 3 blocks. The home block is small and fragmented - so only 1/2 of it has access to handling facilities. Our fields/paddocks are quite small - mostly just about 1ac. So for 10 cows plus calves plus bull it can test the ground in a normal/wet year. So, AI suites from that POV. How it doesn't suit is that when AI man comes can be mid morning so I need to leave work for approx 2hrs to travel to the outfarm, get the cattle in, get them served, and back home again. I've not really squared the circle on how to handle repeats.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,437 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    I've got 4 on tight grazing at minute; they are 33, 14, 13 and 1 day since service. Can they be moved at these dates? It's a 30min journey.

    If it was okay to move mid cycle then that might ease/resolve some of my issues. I guess it is comparing short term transport stress against longer term dietary stress?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 307 ✭✭Omallep2


    Why would you need to leave work? If you see cows on in the morning can you not put in that evening for AI or if on in the evening put in then for AI mid morning (following morning)? Just have water in pen. Or will your AI man not put cow into race and let back out again?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,646 ✭✭✭148multi


    If your stock are normally transported to this new grass there will be minimal stress as they will know well why they are being loaded and will look forward to it if done every year, as above water or meal to get them in, if they become trained to it, it becomes a habit for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,047 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    Genetics has a huge part to play. I've a ZAG cow here bulling today. Only calved 17 days. Her mother went in calf this year at 31 days after calving.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,437 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    What bolus are you all using for breeding season?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭Amateur Farmer


    Your doing plenty of things very well to be fair.

    16 serves with 7 holds and 4 to be confirmed could be ok… if the remaining 4 went in calf you'd a strike rate close to 70%

    Would you consider synchronisation? It takes a bit of work and planning but you could potentially have the cows working around your schedule and not the other way around. I work as well so I synchronise at the start of breeding, then use a bull and then synchronise what hasn't been bulled to close off breeding.

    Patsy hit the nail on the head Genetics has a big say. There are some pedigrees of AI bulls that have super fertility and others are bred purely for beef and fertility can be poor.

    ZAG is from the same family as CWI and goes back to a very good french cow called G7 - I flushed a cow from the G7 family last year and she gave 24 embryos. Gamin (ZGM) is another very good bull to produce fertile cows with calving ability - he has Ionesco in his pedigree as does Cavelands Jolly who is another good female breeder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,437 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    I do Synch them. I prefer doing it this way as it gets the repeat windows aligned, sorts out any with cycling issues (usually) and can get roughly 50% served early in season.

    I doubt the remaining 4 will hold. We are trying to flush out the problematic cows, but will take a few years to get there. Not happy with some of them from stature/frame and performance perspectives, but I intend to introduce heifers with AI breeding that have decent fertility.

    I tried sexed semen before and it was a bollox, although would be a better way to introduce some decent replacements.

    This is the program I use:

    Day

    Task

    Time

    0

    Insert CIDR
    2.5ml Receptal




    7 days

    7

    2ml Cevaprost

    08:00 AM



    24hrs

    8

    Remove CIDR

    08:00 AM



    36hrs

    9

    2.5ml Receptal

    08:00 PM



    18hrs

    10

    AI

    02:00 PM

    Based on the Zoetis CIDR-sync: cycling and non-cycling animals: breeding-protocols-for-beef-cows.pdf



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭Amateur Farmer


    That's a good program, I use the same program but give another shot of PG when removing the CIDR - it helps with stubborn CL's. I use 1.5 inch 20 gauge needles for the injections and hold my finger over the injection site for a few seconds to make sure no hormone leaks out.

    For sexed semen I'll leave the AI 4-6hrs later and light a candle after that!! To be fair to the AI companies the success rate of sexed semen has improved no end.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    Are CIDR’s still available, vets around us are PRIDs only. I liked CIDRs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭Amateur Farmer


    I'd say the cows prefer them anyway!! The PRIDS are awkward yokes, but yes CIDR's are still available. Some of the practices favour giving out PRIDs as they can be given to a customer on prescription whereas CIDR's are supposed to be put in by vets. All paperwork nonsense from a licensing aspect, there's actually more progesterone with a PRID than a CIDR.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,047 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    Ya, I've a cow here from the G7 line and she has a calf every 11 months.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,437 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    Would strip grazing stress a cow to the point of impacting hold rate? The fence gets moved x2 daily. The grass would be coarse by the time they get to end of field. But they seem to be in good condition.

    Just thought that maybe the ability wander a bit more was better for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭Amateur Farmer


    I was using PRIDS one year and when I was pulling them I couldn't find one in a cow and assumed it had fallen out or she got it caught on something. I went ahead with the program and it was only when I was doing the AI that i felt it still in wedged oblong in her uterus. I took it out and AI'd her and she ended up going in calf.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,437 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    Not sure if they would do this for me. I suppose I could ask though.

    If I'm not about they usually ring for me to come out. I need to have a plan for next year as I'm considering switching to a bull due to the low hold rate and awkwardness of attending repeats.

    A bull for 10 cows is a waste though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    Not if you have all your cows in calf. Pay €5000 for a bull, cull him for €4000 after 3/4 seasons (keeping daughters). AI + repeats = €500/year



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    the most expensive animal on the farm is an empty cow



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66 ✭✭dowlerswozere


    why don’t you synchronize all your cows and rent a bull for 6-9 weeks to mop up. Cull any empties



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,437 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    I'd rather keep a closed herd. It's going to be 100% AI or 100% bull.

    Yes, that is an option. I've got enough straws pre-bought to cover next year. That will allow me to get the handling facilities finished on the outfarms and try AI for year at them and see if I can improve on the hold rates.

    By a waste I meant buying a good quality bull just to cover 10 cows. Buying average bulls (or something to get them into calf) is a false economy as the quality of an AI calf will more than pay for itself in comparison. A quality bull is the way to go, but as I said previously my fields are mostly sub 1ac so it is tight going in a wet year. With the AI I can split them into 2 groups and manage the ground better. It really is just down to whether I can improve 1st service hold rates and how to manage the repeats.

    There are pros and cons to both approaches.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 307 ✭✭Omallep2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 235 ✭✭V6400


    the damage you’ll do on a wet year bringing them in and out for ai will be way worse than having a bull in the field with them. I’d have a lot of small fields here even under an acre, a big field is 2 acres on very wet ground and running a bull with 20 cows in them is no major issue. If you’re worried about the difference of quality of an ai calf versus a stock bull calf you also need to take into account the weight difference you’re loosing with the repeats from ai. Take a calf doing even just 1.5kg per day for 3 weeks that the cow lost due to ai repeat, that’s over 30kg the ai calf has to make up, at well over €5/kg for weanlings this year thats some catching up to do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,437 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    I agree to an extent. I'll probably try sexed AI for some replacements though and sweep with a bull. 1st service hold rates seem to be around 60% for suckler based herds. If you take 60% at each cycle it will take 3 cycles to get all to hold. If I can't better that, then it will definitely be a bull.

    As an aside to this - would (m)any of you use tail paint or scratch cards on cows that are running with the bull - just see keep an eye on cows not holding. Or would you all pre-scan that cows before the breeding season to check for cycling problems?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 790 ✭✭✭ABitofsense


    I use scratch cards (no bull though) and they are handy up until the calves learn to start pulling them off or scratching them. I actually think that they know it changes colour and go at it. It can be very annoying. I use carpet glue to stick them to the cows (someone recommended it on another forum years ago) and that does work most of the time. I never prescan but monitor cows morning and evening and write down when i see cows coming in heat so i know when their cycling before breeding starts



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 969 ✭✭✭Sugarbowl


    what I find very good is the marking stick crayon that you can buy in the coop with different colours. Around 2 euro each. Mark the tail head. And then when cow in heat and another cow is jumping on them, you can see that colour under the jumping cow, as well as the cow having her colour rubbed off her tail. Agree about the calves rubbing their heads off the cows tailheads. At least you can apply crayon again for relatively low cost. Use all AI here too with very little repeats.



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