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Northern Ireland 2125?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I think unionists accepted devolution within a uk partially because the IRA were wrecking the place. So there is form for peaceful majorities accepting devolution to quieten down the bothersome wee neighbours



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That is all made up.

    I hold the British responsible for allowing the society to degrade to the point that violence broke out and for trying to shore up the sectarian bigoted one party state. As Hume said they did not remove the Unionist veto until the Anglo Irish Agreement and took another 16 years to sign the GFA. Something that could have been delivered decades earlier had they believed in democracy.

    I do NOT and never blamed them for ALL the violence…neither here or by whisper. They are to blame for the violence they colluded in and did themselves as are all the other groups who engaged in it.

    I ignored downcow’s question because it’s not relevant. It is HE who is proposing that Loyalists who have no hinterland like the IRA, no supply lines and who never mounted much more than a random killing of catholics spree will wage an island wide war.
    Away with the fairies stuff tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    tell us honestly francie why you would not want devolution, and don’t give us economics. Try to tell us your honest gut feeling - I’ll not hold my breath



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I certainly did not say that francie.
    I am opposed to a violent sectarian campaign from either side.

    But you should know the most effective terrorism does not need a war waged island wide. Do you remember the dark days? Do you remember the impact of the pub shootings? Do you remember that catholic pubs were empty fearful places? Horrific stuff and no way to retaliate to the Ira sectarian attacks but it took two men to carry out loughinisland and a couple for the Rising Sun etc. the country was thrown into panic.
    so anyone peddling nonsense that the loyalists do not have the capacity to carry out a horrific gin attack in a pub in Dublin, is not living in the real world. And anyone who does not know the immediate impact that has on life accosted island, didn’t live in ni during the troubles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You say “and took another 16 years to sign the GFA. Something that could have been delivered decades earlier had they believed in democracy.”

    Very interesting. Ni was a fully integrated region of the uk governed by Westminster. You seem to be arguing that it was more democratic to carve of this region and devolve it.
    I would be arguing exactly the same in a united ireland 👍



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Because it has failed at tremendous expense to people and because a UI offers a fairer more democratic system for everybody who believes in democracy.
    Pandering to a minorities anger or intransigence won’t fix anything it just can kicks the problem down the road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What was it the British used to say-the terrorists can not be allowed to win.

    You peddle these third party threats as some sort of positive for a re-partition. It’s bizarre.
    Have you considered that the British won’t be here to protect you from the inevitable backlash you will provoke, it’ll be ‘dad’s army’ according to you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    NI was a sectarian bigoted one party state for 50 years and the British, talking shite about being upholders of democracy allowed it to operate and tried to uphold it after it went up in flames. A sectarian police force, sectarian UDR and an iron fist on the CNR community.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    so you spent the whole thread saying any talk of conflict was nonsense. now the mask slips and you say “Have you considered that the British won’t be here to protect you from the inevitable backlash you will provoke”

    It is without question that there will be loyalist violence after a UI. Now you tell us there will be a backlash and there will be no one to protect us. Unlike the Ira, our community has no form on surrender, and you ‘inevitable backlash’ overnight unite the unionist community in defence (that’s inevitable) which creates an atmosphere where some will try to convince the community that the best form of defence is attack.

    You can see where it’s going. you can imagine the impact on the Irish economy. would they call the brits in?

    A majority military power funded by a 80,000,000 population kept the lid on it the last time. Different problem for the Irish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Of course there will be a backlash, there are those on the other side who are still active. Are you seriously suggesting you hadn’t considered that?

    I am not suggesting as you do that something should be accepted or else. That’s your implied threat here.

    All the violence will be put down very quickly, supply lines will be shut to any loyalists in a heartbeat because everything that comes into NI by air or road has to come through the new border and loyalists do not have the coastline to land armaments the way the IRA could. They’ll be hemmed into their own areas and the British not wanting a mess will shut down activity in GB. US will see to it as well.

    Snookered is the popular term. Bryson tried and could only muster mostly old people to his rallies in tiny numbers.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    The first policeman killed during the period known as "the troubles" was actually killed by loyalists.

    Constable Victor Arbuckle, who was shot dead on October 12, 1969. He was a member of the RUC and was killed during street violence on the Shankill Road in Belfast. If there was a vote for a U.I. it is not hard to imagine the violence that would erupt against the Gardai. Cannot see the Gardai with their very limited resources coping well at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Irish History


    RE: "neighbours".

    Foreign ethnic British Unionists (census) are not our neighbours - they are squatting in our house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    The mask slips. Sime Republicans try to reassure unionists they would be safe in a U.I, but sometimes the mask slips……



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Irish History


    Depends on which "Patrick" is the actual Naomh Pádraig.

    Palladius was from Gaul - Pope Celestine I sent him to Ireland "to the Scotti believing in Christ" (Scotti being us native Irish, the Gaels - Scotland is named after us Irish).

    Pātricius was from Britain. A lot of nonsense written about this "Patrick" (not by him).

    Both have been referred to as the "Patrick".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    We just had a unionist telling us that if they don’t get what they want

    major violence breaks out across the island



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Irish History


    Don't be really stupid if you can. We Irish in the 'Southern Ireland' State live in a Republic. We are Republicans - we are not slime.

    And I'm stating a historical fact re the foreign ethnic British Unionists (census), not disputed.

    Why wouldn't the foreign ethnic British Unionists (census) be safe when Ireland is reunified?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    You wrote:

    "Foreign ethnic British Unionists (census) are not our neighbours - they are squatting in our house.

    Last time a lot were intimidated out, shot, burnt out, disappeared…

    By the way, last time Ireland was unified was when we were part of the UK.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Irish History


    I know what I wrote but you don't seem to understand what I wrote - do you have a problem with comprehension?

    The foreign ethnic British Unionists (census) are not our neighbours - they are squatting in our house. Meaning they are foreign British in Ireland. Are you attempting to deny reality?

    As for you writing "Last time a lot were intimidated out, shot, burnt out, disappeared". Such is war. Why do you think that would happen when we Irish are allowed by the foreign British to vote for the reunification of our own country Ireland?

    Unionists are signed up to the GFA reunification of Ireland process, are they not? Either Unionists subscribe to the tenets of democracy or they do not - which is it???

    If idiot Unionists cause trouble - we Irish will let the brits clean up their own mess during the transition period - before the actual hand back of the occupied 6 counties to the Irish people.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ideally the IRA campaign should have never started, but since it did, it should have ended in 1972 when the old Stormont parliament was abolished. It achieved absolutely nothing after this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Irish History


    As for what you wrote at the end "By the way, last time Ireland was unified was when we were part of the UK". Here is some more news for you - man landed on the moon.

    And just so you know. England/Britain had no mandate in Ireland - it never did. England illegally invaded and fraudulently occupied Ireland.

    As for the so-called UK State - we native Irish people never voted to join the foreign Union in the very first instance.

    Ireland was shanghaied into it by a foreign British Parliament in Ireland full of foreign ethnic British Unionists, under the control of Dublin Castle, England's real power in Ireland - and we native Irish people have been trying to get our country Ireland out of it ever since!

    Even the foreign British PM Gladstone said on 28th of June 1886 :-

    "There is no blacker or fouler transaction in the history of man than the making of the union between Great Britain and Ireland. The carrying of it was nothing in the world but an artful combination of fraud and force, applied in the basest manner to the attainment of an end which all Ireland detested. A more base proceeding, a more vile proceeding, is not recorded, in my judgment, in any page of history."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    oh I agree that loyalists would not have the active support and encourage from Britain that the Ira had from the Irish government - glad you are finally admitting that history though. It would be another great step to reconciliation if the Irish government said what you are now saying



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Do you think British violence would have stopped in 72? Do you think RUC violence would have stopped? B Special/UDR violence would have stopped or the violence of the various unionist/Loyalist paramilitary groups?

    What about NI society back then convinces you that anyone who put their head above the parapet looking for equal rights and an end to the sectarian bigoted state would have had any success?

    The parliament in Belfast was stood down because the supremacist Unionist party would not hand over security matters to Westminster. Given that Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy happened that year what makes you think that would have been a 'better' arrangement for the CNR community?
    It is a very easy thing to say 'the IRA should have stopped' (and I wish they had) but that is just simplistic hindsight sadly. When parliament was stood down and 60,000 were brought out on the streets to be told by William Craig the Ulster Unionist leader that

    if and when the politicians fail us, it may be our job to liquidate the enemy

    do you think Unionism was ready to be democratic? The fact is, that 'us', that refused to share 'Our' wee country was not ready to be democrats, and the British were not ready to remove their veto either although it had that power at any time.

    The bloodiest year in NI followed with the British and Loyalists killing over 200 and the various Republican groups killing around the same, in total 480 people died and thousands were injured.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Kinda shows here that you are out of rope when you have to make up stuff about what is said.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    Nothing made up in Downcow's post.

    In the event of a U.I., loyalists would have no support and encouragement from the British government. It is well known the support various members of the Irish government gave nod nod wink wink to the Republican movement. Remember the Arms trial? No need for that if there was not. It was only until the pIRA started killing Gardai down here, and robbed many banks etc, thats things tightened up on the pIRA, but even then there were well known safe houses Republicans could operate from. Most of the requests for extradition from the Republic were turned down. Many Gardai hated the pIRA but the pIRA had sympathisers, and were good at intimidating those who did not agree with them. So Downcow was right, of course.

    Thank God there are people who can see the sway extremist republicans would also have in a U.I.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,983 ✭✭✭csirl


    Not true. I dont think its a possibility. GFA only provides for a unification vote. No chance a newly unified country votes for re-partirion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    Correct. There was equal voting for everyone, did not matter if you were property owner or not. Laws were introduced about job discrimination. No excuse for the armed struggle of republicans, whose aim was to get "the Brits out" by bombing, murdering, kidnapping, destroying economic targets and destroying the economy etc. The loyalists would stop their retaliation if the Republicans stopped their campaign. The British government flew Adams and the republican leadership to London for talks in the early seventies to plead with them to stop their violence but of course they would not. It was in the interests of the British + loyalists to have no violence / a prosperous N.I.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The takeaway from that is that

    loyalists will have none of the support they needed in the past

    In the event of a U.I., loyalists would have no support and encouragement from the British government.

    and dissident republicans will also have none and will have no longer any reason to fight, as there will be a UI = no violence capable of destabilising any new constitutional arrangement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    Glad you are finally admitting stating that loyalists would not have the active support and encourage from Britain that the Ira had from the Irish government. Do you not think it would be another great step to reconciliation if the Irish government said what you are now saying?

    As regards violence in a U.I. , it would'nt take much for things to ignite again : I could see the Gardai not being able to contain rioting , a few Gardai killed, a few loyalists killed, and things start off again. In the last troubles the first policeman in N.I. killed was by loyalists. Would not take loyalists very much encouragement to kill a Gardai if they were stamping down on the loyalist community in N.I. Would not matter if the Gardai was an Irish speaking GAA playing Republican or not, armed or not. They would see him as the oppressor. Countess Markievicz murdered an unarmed Irish speaking policeman in cold blood in 1916. People do do these things.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,287 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The combined forces of the Irish, British, US, and the rest of Europe will come down so hard on belligerents they won't know what hit them IMO and rightly so, because it is now in ALL their interests that a UI works.

    'Island wide violence' that @downcow talked about is the stuff of Jamie Bryson's dreams.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    In the 1980s do you not think the combined forces of the Irish, British, US and the rest of Europe came down hard on the pIRA, after Enniskillen for example, but they were still able to cause mayhem? Remember the mayhem one individual like McGlinchy (not the the IRA) caused / he had thousands of Gardai looking for him?

     As you finally admitted that loyalists would not have the active support and encourage from Britain that the Ira had from the Irish government, do you not think it would be another great step to reconciliation if the Irish government said what you are now saying?

    You cannot have it both ways. Either the IRA had help from the Irish State ( Arms trial, safe houses, training, little or no extradition) or they did not. Which is it?



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