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Northern Ireland 2125?

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    #362
    tinytobe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713166#Comment_123713166

    I think there is nothing wrong with a peaceful co-existence and a transparent border. I actually see the partition as an advantage. Either side offers something the other wants in terms of products and choice of it, - that's usual in any border area.

    Respect that the other one is different to you and don't force your opionon on the other one. Neighbours can exist as neighbours without one taking over the other.

    In the case of the ROI and NI, in case of a unification, I don't see that it's currently to the benefit of either. The ROI would be left with the cost and NI would be dealing with something inferior, like healthcare, military and defence and also the finance industry.



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    #363
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123711070#Comment_123711070

    Given that this thread is about the future of Northern Ireland, and that Northern Ireland is currently in NATO, surely speculating on whether future Northern Ireland will be in NATO is directly on-topic?



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    #364
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,346 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713376#Comment_123713376

    Absolutely. Suffice to say that any decision on joining a military alliance would be a matter for everyone in that UI. That decision cannot be a demand from a minority as it affects all our futures.

    Diverting to a discussion on the good and bad of NATO itself or extolling it’s merits as if you are fighting the actual UI campaign would IMO be way off topic.



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    #365
    downcow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713083#Comment_123713083

    I would absolutely accept what you say in that post as accurate.
    if you are asking would I accept a 32 county Ireland - absolutely not.



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    #366
    downcow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    The people of ni have a veto. End off.
    the British government neither have one or want one.



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    #367
    Rocket_GD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713410#Comment_123713410

    Well if the majority vote for it, your opinion is essentially irrelevant, you'd just have to accept it and move on either living in the new 32 county Ireland or move.



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    #368
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,346 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713416#Comment_123713416

    Do you accept that nobody has a veto if majorities vote for a UI in both jurisdictions?



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    #369
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713402#Comment_123713402

    If you are looking to secure support for a united Ireland, you tie up loose ends in advance.

    That means being absolutely clear on membership of the EU, membership of NATO, membership of the Commonwealth, federal powers and local powers etc.



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    #370
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123711724#Comment_123711724

    One has to be realistic.

    Ireland is tied to the US economically. Ireland hasn't needed to be in NATO because Northern Ireland is and there is a strategic presence on the island.

    The importance of Ireland to the defence of the West in modern warfare is often underestimated. Russian access to the North Atlantic down the west coast is important, even more so are the communication cables.

    Pretty clear to me that if you want EU and US support for a united Ireland of any sort, it will come with the price tag of NATO membership. They will not want to risk the chance that a SF-led Russian-sympathetic government takes power.



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    #371
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,346 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713452#Comment_123713452

    A referendum with a menu of options is not workable IMO

    A number of decisions can be made and form part of the plan presented.

    The Irish government will propose x, y, z, if a vote is carried.
    The ‘plan’ will be reflective of what a majority here are comfortable with as it should be. We are comfortably in the EU so that will be there.
    IMO decisions like joining a military alliance will not be decided on as that would be seen as appeasement and spark division here. We as of now, do not intend joining NATO. If that changes maybe it can be offered in a plan.
    .



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    #372
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713513#Comment_123713513

    Appeasement??? You seriously need to reconsider your thoughts on a united Ireland. The good republicans won't be getting everything they want. There will be a negotiation and a delicate one at that with interested parties like the UK, US, EU and NATO.

    Any proposal that is looking for EU and US support will come with conditions from EU and the US. You have told us repeatedly that they will put up money for a united Ireland. Naive in the extreme to think that membership of NATO won't be part of their upfront demands. The package on the table will include that. That is the price.

    It is also probable that membership of the Commonwealth, albeit maybe only special associate membership, will be in the package.

    The plan won't just be reflective of what a majority here down South are comfortable with, it will include significant concessions to minority interests to get the widest possible support. As I have pointed out previously, it will also contain a future devolved Northern Ireland with its present borders.

    Of course, this is all at least a decade away, so plenty of time to finalise.



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    #373
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,433 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713513#Comment_123713513

    I don't think either Ireland (Republic) or Northern Ireland could predetermine policy shifts for a United Ireland. Under the GFA it's clear that the options open to NI are (a) stay in the UK, or (b) be integrated into the existing state of Ireland; no other option will be offered. That means that a choice to be integrated into Ireland would be a choice to be integrated into an EU member state.

    Of course the new state might subsequently take a decision to leave the EU — not very likely, I think, but a theoretical possibility. But I don't think the then-current Irish government could give a commitment one way or the other on that; it would be a decision to be taken by a future Government/Oireachtas, elected by the people of the whole country. The most that the parties currently in government could credibly do is to say that, after unification as political parties they would support, or oppose, such a move.

    Similarly with regard to NATO membership. Assuming Ireland hasn't become a NATO member in the meantime (and assuming NATO hasn't been killed off by Trump) NI would be voting to join a non-NATO state. The state might, or might not, then apply to join NATO, but no binding commitment could be given on the matter either way, since an Oireachtas representing 32 counties might take a different view from one representing 26 counties.



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    #374
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,346 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713545#Comment_123713545

    Of course it would be appeasement if we dangle it as an inducement.

    Have you any back up for the following?

    The EU will have conditions on joining Nato?

    The British will have them too?

    The US will have too?

    Or the bizarre contention that NATO get to make conditions too?

    Yes, the plan will be reflective of what we are comfortable with offering, concessions and enshrining of identity rights etc. etc.



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    #375
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,346 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713562#Comment_123713562

    FG would be in NATO as would FF under Michaél Martin. What's stopping them is they know how potentially destabilising that decision could be.

    That's because it is a serious decision. Not one that should be offered as an appeasement or inducement.

    It's a decision to be taken after serious discussion by the whole electorate of a UI IMO



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    #376
    downcow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713402#Comment_123713402

    you mask slips when you refer to everything the unionist community might want as a ‘demand’.
    you might be disappointed and the majority of people in Ireland might want to welcome us into a united ireland with some reasonable concessions which we have requested (we can’t demand - that would be undemocratic).
    eg a devolved NI or smaller devolved NE



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    #377
    downcow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Interesting approach



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    #378
    downcow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Now that is just a silly question ie do you accept you don’t win if you don’t win.



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    #379
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,346 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713883#Comment_123713883

    And we STILL await a clear answer,

    Do you accept that in the event of both jurisdictions voting for a UI that nobody has a veto on that decision?

    Yes or no?



  • Options
    #380
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,346 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713874#Comment_123713874

    Not a problem in the world here re anthem and flag change. No issue with everyone being equal regardless of identity. No problems if you want to march up the middle of O’Connell St and back again as long as it isn’t done to taunt.

    There are things I do have an issue with, giving into demands from whoever (Unionists, partitionists, The British, the EU US etc) to joon a military alliance.
    Red line for me, but if a majority wish to join I will accept.



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    #381
    downcow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713891#Comment_123713891

    that is Northern Ireland’s veto. Self-determination. If that is what the people of ni vote for then how could anyone else have a veto?
    it really is a daft question.
    if we give up our veto then of course we won’t have a veto.



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    #382
    downcow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    What do you mean ‘red line’. Where are you moving to if it happens?



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    #383
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,346 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713915#Comment_123713915

    I’ll ask one more time for a yes or no answer.

    If both jurisdictions vote in favour of a UI, do you accept that is the end of the matter as per what was agreed in the GFA.? Both governments give effect to that decision in their respective parliaments and nobody has a veto after that.
    A UI happens.

    Yes or No.



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    #384
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713562#Comment_123713562

    A border poll with a simple "integrate into the South" option will never pass. It is just like a Brexit-type poll.

    It is only when that reality is faced up to that a new State will have to be on the table in advance of the border poll, and that the arrangements for that new State - joining the Commonwealth, joining NATO, federal Northern Ireland - will also have to be part of the package and part of the referendum.



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    #385
    downcow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713891#Comment_123713891

    The other very silly aspect of this is your suggestion that someone other than the people of Northern Ireland have a veto. 

    You do know why the piece was put in about it happening simultaneously in the republic? Do you believe anyone signing the gfa believed there was the slightest chance the people of the South would vote no?

    It was put in there simply so as people like you would save some face and can make this silly claim that Northern Ireland’s destiny lies with the people of the whole island.   We all know exactly who will decide Northern Irelands future, and it is the people of OWC, no one else.  That was the masterstroke of the gfa



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    #386
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,346 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713938#Comment_123713938

    Why would the ‘have’ to be?

    You handing out vetos again?



  • Options
    #387
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713946#Comment_123713946

    If you want the referendum to pass, and you want a consensus New Ireland they have to be.

    However, if you have a partisan approach and believe the demographic destiny is bound to happen, you will cling to the old GFA idea of a single unitary poll and be doomed to failure.



  • Options
    #388
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713891#Comment_123713891

    Your point is misleading and disingenuous.

    The fact that both jurisdictions have to vote in favour means that each has a veto.



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    #389
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,346 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713950#Comment_123713950

    You let me and anyone else pro a UI worry about how to get a yes vote.

    Nothing ‘has’ to be in there.
    What will to be in there is what is decided in the devising of a plan. Which will come from discussions with the stakeholders who wish to take part, the outcome from citizens assemblies and discussion in the Dãil and Senate.

    It may ‘have’ to be in there to satisfy you but you, like me have a single vote.



  • Options
    #390
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713977#Comment_123713977

    Take that partisan approach if you wish, but it is doomed to failure.

    Micheal Martin knows the poverty of what you are proposing.



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    #391
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,346 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123713985#Comment_123713985

    Michaél Martin knows how destabilising suggesting joining NATO would be to his power base.



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