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Northern Ireland 2125?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,215 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    It was pretty clear that you never intended to use the thread to have a good faith discussion...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Randycove


    disputed by who? Didn’t we all agree to it in a referendum?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,521 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    That looks like a wad of crap from some AI to me. I didn't even bother to read it beyond checking for sources which are of course notable by their absence.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,404 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No, we agreed that the aspiration to a UI (wanting a UI disputes partition) is a legitimate one and that once a majority are in favour of getting rid of partition that is what will happen.
    We agreed to accept continued partition only because a majority wants it to continue which is different to accepting partition.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Randycove




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,404 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The majority wish to continue it isn't disputed as per what was agreed in the GFA. Partition itself is disputed by everyone who legitimately aspires to put the partitioned parts together again

    Sometimes I wonder did people read the GFA.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I have no doubt it is AI generated but of course that does not make it false. My history is not good, so I cannot really comment, but I did go so far as to look up what Gael means as that made me smile. And sure enough it seems it does mean intruder, outsider, foreigner, etc.

    the irony is hilarious. We have the planters and the invaders arguing who owns the land. You couldn’t make it up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Randycove


    an aspiration isn’t a dispute. Some people aspire for a United States of Europe, but that doesn’t mean they dispute the current borders, it just means they would like to change something for what they perceive to be better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,404 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If it gives you comfort to think that partition is not disputed, work away. You'll be in for a surprise but that seems to be your choice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    ….and are you suggesting that if ever the South moves the border to include the six counties, that that new border won’t be disputed.
    is there any border anywhere in the world that is not disputed?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,404 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Like the result of any referendum you are free to dispute it. Nobody agrees that abortion is right just because a referendum allows it.

    Dispute away, that will be your right now and always.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    Where would we be now if FF FG had of started and stayed as 32 county partys after partition-?-

    Why on earth did those two do what the brits wanted-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,906 ✭✭✭standardg60


    All I can gather from your posts is that you seem to be worried that in the event of a UI you will be accused of being 2nd class Irish?

    Only morons would do that, you're as Irish as any of them, you don't need to invent a new history to claim so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,404 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The vitriol and lundying of Wallace Thompson and others because they simply talked at Féile really is something to behold.
    Rather than face their demons it's all out attack and vilification.



    Their demons being - how many Unionists are actually on the same journey as the above? How many Unionists are prepared to give another way a chance? How many Unionists agree that Great Britain actually doesn't care?
    Thompson is by no means the only one of his type, plenty like him are prepared to engage and debate, but he certainly has become a figurehead of hate. The latest in a long line of 'Lundy's'.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,913 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    There's a lot of talk about appeasing about 200,000 hard core DUP voters. But they are the ones who broke the illusion, before Brexit you could be as British or Irish as you wanted.

    Thanks to the DUP taking dodgy money to run ads in every other part of the UK, NI which voted to stay in the EU has left the UK's customs area but is still in the EU customs union. How many times did the DUP die on a hill "fighting the power" which forced Westminster to take control and force through those laws anyway. Lost political capital and respect.

    My favourite was when they tried to tag Ulster Scots on to the Irish Language Act and the reaction was "Oh!, ahh, OK"

    Every time the London government diverge from the EU it could also mean NI diverging from the UK.

    Politics can move very fast. If Scotland gets independence or if Farage gets power or if the "Great British Public" realise that NI costs a lot more than £350m a week or if the Tories get another Carson … there's quite a few routes to the UK arriving at a decision to drop NI like a hot potato.

    The Irish tax take so far this year is €3.9Bn more than this time last year. Which should cover our costs for NI. I'd argue that since reunification is fairly inevitable we might as well bite the bullet before the difference in GDP gets worse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    thankfully this is all nonsense and no one can drop us like a hot potato thanks to the protections of the GFA. This is something else I believe is unique about Northern Ireland. I think we may well be the only constituent part of a bigger nation, which has an international agreement that guarantees that it cannot be removed from that bigger nation - Scotland, Cork, Cornwall - none of them have it.
    This is the piece that it always stunned me that Republicans signed up to. The world anand its brother knew that if there was ever a majority in Northern Ireland who wanted to leave the UK, that that would be enacted. So Republicans gained zero by this, they simply copper fastened the union – and if everyone on here was honest they would except that 30 years since that agreement, not only is there no movement towards that, but we have sustained Brexit, Ireland going through this temporary phase of making megabucks out of the USA, a very impressive and well-funded SF PR machine, and endless own goals by unionist parties - and still it gets no closer and is not anywhere on the horizon.
    The IRA done two serious dis-services to Republicans and nationalists ie they killed more of them than any other group over the 30-year conflict, and their surrender agreement negotiated saving some face in return for securing OWCs place in the UK.
    Republicans should be directing their anger the IRA and certainly not at those unionist who have screwed up again and again and tried to hand Northern Ireland on a plate to Ireland, but have been rescued by Republicans every time



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,404 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I think most people would know that a confident Unionist who sees himself as British would not be on a website constantly trying to reassure himself of the future.

    The GFA is unique because it is an agreement between two, yes @downcow, that's TWO sovereign nations.
    No such need exists for Scotland Wales or Cornwall.

    The GFA explicitly involves Dublin and the Irish electorate in yours and everyone else in the north's fate.

    It was what your community railed against when it was signed and it was why The DUP, TUV and belligerent Unionists/Loyalists hated it and still do to this day even though some of them will pretend.

    Seriously, if you don't get that about it, that really is your problem.

    25 years after they are gone you are still on about the 'RA while everyone else has moved on and are working towards that constitutional change.
    Instead of burning toxic waste and stolen wood they are holding huge inclusive cultural events discussing that change and many other things about themselves and their neighbours, that's a confident community not one paralysed by siege mentalities.

    Somebody said the other day that Michaél Martin's achievement was keeping SF out of government here.

    That's all it will take IMO to start the ball rolling towards a BP - SF in a government, I also think a different FF leader could do it if he/she has vision. It's a mega prize for any political leader here.

    I have always said the British will wait until Dublin says it is ready for a BP. The British are long ready, the GFA was their tacit withdrawal after all…and Paisley, Allister, Bryson and the ordinary belligerent Unionist/Loyalist knows that too. It's why they hate it and why they seek constant reassurance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,521 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Irish unification is obviously not a political prize for any politician. It comes with severe problems involving incorporating a hostile demographic, financial issues and myriad other things. If it was such a prize, it would have happened by now given that most English people can only find NI because it's name references its location.

    I think it's unfair to say that Unionists opposed the GFA. Obviously, the DUP and others did but several Unionists did support the GFA. If they didn't, it wouldn't have passed.

    Of course, it's fun to ridicule Unionism for its pathetic excuses for traditions and its total lack of anything resembling a culture. However, it doesn't exactly create fertile ground for cooperation or a welcoming atmosphere for moderate Unionists to want or at least peacefully accept a UI.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,404 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The criticism is of belligerent Unionism/Loyalism.

    And if you think achieving Irish Unity is not looked on as a political prize just wait and see when the volte face happens. You will have Irish leaders of whatever creed talking about 'century long dreams' and aspirations and their part in progressing it etc. etc.
    The reason that hasn't happened is simple 'fear' - fear that power for them will wane in a UI.

    Unfortunately for them, that power is waning for FG & FF anyway, they have tacitly merged now because their biggest fear is at the gate.

    There will be a tipping point and you will see in FG and FF the same thing that happened when Leo Varadkar shook off the constraints imposed by FG. Once those constraints are gone they will embrace a UI as if it was their idea. That day is close IMO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 690 ✭✭✭michael-henry-mcivor


    It shows the brilliance of the RA that some Unionists still support the GFA agreement despite the 1920 government of Ireland act being removed- Act(s of union getting the boot-

    All loyalist groups now oppse the GFA- even Trimble opposed it bitterly before he died- he knew he sold Unionists out-

    It was not the killings that made the difference in the end- it was the Provos one tonne bombs in English city's that ensured that the peace-process would work-



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,521 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    That's not the same thing at all. If it was a massive prize, they'd be scrambling for it to distract from Ireland's very real problems. If the tide turns, they'll run to the front and make out as if they were after unification all along. That's just cynical opportunism, nothing more.

    I don't think that many people care about unification at this point. The GFA and the UK's former membership of the EU had eroded any difference to the point of irrelevance. If Sinn Féin form a government, I do expect them to pursue unification more zealously but that won't be why they get in. It'll be for the same reason Keir Starmer is our PM here. Voters will just vote for change, not a UI.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    this is a great little tweet, that speaks clearly to you and about you. Best reaction to your post.
    https://x.com/mooreholmes24/status/1953370260502978737?s=46



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,404 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I enjoyed this tweeter, pointing out the same thing I did.

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Yes, a very fair post.
    and yes, I for one, voted yes to the agreement.
    the vast majority of unionists I know voted no to it. And everyone of them, it was on a single issue ie prison release. I swallowed that pill to get the benefits of securing the union and defeat of the Ira - I fully understand why many couldn’t



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,404 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If voters vote for SF they will know that a UI is a huge part of their policy. They will expect and be comfortable with them pursuing one.

    If you haven't noticed the fear of empowering SF and fear of giving northern voters any voting rights while paying lip service to Shared Islands and equal citizenship then there is not much I can do. That fear has ended Civil War politics and ushered in a coming together of FF and FG to see off the impostors at the gate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,521 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't live in Ireland. If I can't feel this alleged fear, it's for that very simple reason.

    Yes, I know SF famously want a UI. What I'm saying is that if they win, it'll be because people want change, not necessarily a UI and the upheaval that that will entail.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    ’the brilliance of the ‘ra ‘

    Extremely offensive to the bereaved families.

    Loyalists removed their support because it was cherry picked and not adhered to over brexit. Loyalists want its full implementation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,404 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The GFA didn't have an a la carte menu.

    It's an agreement between two sovereign governments that goes far beyond prison releases or the defeat of any paramilitary group.

    It's an agreement that has not been broken. Not by Unionist agitation nor by Unionist and British annoyance that it put them between a rock and a hard place because they (the British gov) can no longer make decisions about Ireland without the consent of Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Yes, a recent poll, I’m sure you guys saw, said that 1% of Irish population put unification top of there requests list.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,404 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That in fairness is just an opinion. If people vote for a party that has a major policy plank then I think we can assume they are comfortable with that.
    The most recent poll that asked the question shows that majorities in both jurisdictions want the question to be asked in the next 10 years, as well.



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