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Israel/Palestine Thread

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Comments

  • #48872
    Miniegg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Miniegg


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123687953#Comment_123687953

    Hold on Marko, again you are misrepresenting what I have said countless times. Why the f*ck do I have to keep repeating this?

    I could care less what Hamas wants. Of course they need to go, and whoever was involved in Oct 7th needs to go to trial and face justice. Got it? Stop trying to put that what I'm saying in anyway justifies Hamas positions, it doesn't. My position is the safety of civilians.

    Israel is a country starving 2 million people to death because there happen to be terrorists amongst them. The vast majority of their society either couldn't care less, or a large minority supports it.

    Do you not see how absolutely insane this is?

    I know this has happened incrementally. Maybe you look at it and think it makes sense given the steps that were put in place before, but you need to step back and comprehend how insane it is to do this.

    This country has gone off the deep end could definitely have it in them to bomb all those civilians they have tactically corralled under false pretenses and under threat of starvation, into small areas. I don't know any other reason why they have put them in this situation.

    If you think they wouldn't - that's fine - but I would say you aren't seeing how serious this is.

    What I am saying above are conditions I believe western countries - not Hamas - should be putting on Israel under threat of strictest sanction to ensure the safety of these people. I can't even believe Hamas are the ones negotiating with Israel, they are powerless, they already said they would cede control of Gaza to the PA back in February - Netenyahu refused it! They are utterly defeated and have no feasible way of arguing on behalf of those Palestinians that are in such danger.

    if you want to disagree with me fine - but pls don't make repeat this all again.



  • #48873
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    Anyone else noticing a sea change lately?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2025/israel-gaza-war-children-death-toll/

    Article in the WP listing some of the 18,500 children Israel has murdered. Multiple countries coming out and recognising Palestine (with massive caveats that'll always allow them to back out of course), multiple influential podcasters either refusing to spin their hasbara (Rogan not meeting the Polish Mileikowsky) or are actively trying to hammer them (the radical left-winger Tucker going all in). All this in the last week(s) and I'd say possibly unthinkable even a couple of months ago. It's almost like it's hard to justify starving a civilian population, although decapitating Palestinian children should possibly have been a red line a year ago.

    It really seems they've lost control of the narrative just as much at they've lost control of themselves.



  • #48874
    Noworries!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 256 ✭✭Noworries!


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123687991#Comment_123687991

    That wasn't the question though, it was a query around who will actually lead if a Palestinian state is founded. The river to the sea nonsense aside, it will be very difficult to actually draw boundaries, get a functional government, keep fundamentalist terrorists out, rebuild etc. *Edit to note this was answered.



  • #48875
    dmcdona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,907 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688298#Comment_123688298

    Actually, yes it was exactly the question you posted - here's a reminder:

    So who is in charge now? As in who is a realistic position to lead, so terrorists don't take control again?

    I'll repeat - the IDF are "in charge" of 88% of Gaza.

    Perhaps your question is related to who will be in charge of the Rafah Concentration Camp?

    Or perhaps, as others would have you believe, that once the hostages are released and Hamas are gone that the IDF will just pack their bags and go? And that the Gazans will immediately set up their administrative structures, hold elections and whoever they elect will start to set up their various departments and committees? They is what is required for "realistic leadership".

    I would certainly agree that terrorists must not take control of Gaza again - that will be fulfilled when both Hamas and the IDF are gone and Israel fully complies with the ICJ ruling in their illegal occupations.



  • #48876
    dmcdona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,907 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688255#Comment_123688255

    Many have been pointing out Israeli atrocities for well over a year. Many have been pointing out the Genocidal comments of Ben-Gvir, Smotrich and alleged War Criminals #1 and #2 (both at large) since day one.

    But the start of the world finally realising that Israel is a compulsive liar was about the time the Daily Express published their front page photo of an emaciated child.

    The constant accusations of every man and has dog, who criticised Israel, being "antisemitic" and a "terrorist supporter" became so ubiquitous that people eventually realised it was all Israel had left - name calling. Reflected here too.

    The last 22 months have been the perfect example of "The Boy who cried 'Wolf'"

    You can fool some people some of the time, you can fool all people some of the time but you'll never fool all people all of the time.

    Israel can stew in its self pity for as long as it likes but people will not be fooled by them again. They lost their "existential threat" narrative a long time ago.

    Terrorist State and World Pariah.

    Post edited by dmcdona on


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  • #48877
    dmcdona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,907 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    Daniel Blatman is an Israeli historian, specializing in history of the Holocaust.

    Blatman is the head of the Institute for Contemporary Jewry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.


    "For the past three generations Israel has been constructing an identity of victimhood, ranging from acts perpetrated during the Holocaust to those of Hamas on October 7.

    It denies its own crimes and is therefore living in a permanently distorted reality.

    Any attempt to speak about Israel's crimes against the Palestinians is seen as a threat not only to the image of the nation but to its very survival.

    The defensive narrative has become foundational to Israel's national identity, and any criticism of this narrative is met with the kind of institutional and public violence we are witnessing today"

    Prof. Daniel Blatman



  • #48878
    freebritney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 527 ✭✭✭freebritney


    The three things I notice lately are:

    1. Israel and its supporters are becoming more unhinged and panicked in their attempted defence of their actions, much the same as a fraudster or junkie who's dirty deeds are about to be exposed.
    2. People have stopped blaming Mileikowski alone for the genoicde, they realise the nation of Israel is rotten to the core, a damaged people. The above Historians view supports this.


  • #48879
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,879 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123686078#Comment_123686078

    @sheepysheep see above

    Boards.ie need your help to survive, subscribe here|Keep Boards.ie Alive



  • #48880
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,702 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688255#Comment_123688255

    I made a similar point a day or two ago. The deliberate starvation of the citizens of Gaza was the final tipping point. People instinctively know that any country that would do this is rotten to the core. Once people around the world accepted that this was actually happening (and there were and are hundreds of reports and videos coming out of Gaza), the game was up for the terrorist state.

    It would be like like showing people films of starving people in Belsen in 1945 and regime defenders shouting 'No, no, you've got Germany all wrong….these films are very misleading, nobody in Belsen is starving'. There is no coming back for Israel from this.



  • #48881
    Noworries!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 256 ✭✭Noworries!


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688353#Comment_123688353

    Uuugh, so the IDF are in charge? And will lead the Palestinian people going forward? Unsure what the concentration camp stuff is about? Grand, anyhow, another poster who decided to engage rather than shoehorn in their nonsense, noted Fatah would be a strong candidate, they seem to be more moderate, could be a great opportunity for peace and a functional Palestinian state.



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  • #48882
    Noworries!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 256 ✭✭Noworries!


    I suppose some of the problem going forward will be, assuming obviously that the Palestinian state is recognised, is how do we keep both sides apart, keep the peace as it were. There is intergenerational hatred now, that's going to be difficult to resolve. I wonder would we ever see normalised relations between a Palestinian and an Israeli state.



  • #48883
    scottser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭scottser


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123687414#Comment_123687414

    There are far more pro-genocide posts on here than antisemitic ones.



  • #48884
    dmcdona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,907 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688556#Comment_123688556

    My post was about Gaza - not the wider State of Palestine. Apologies if you were talking about all Palestinians.

    The IDF fully controls Gaza. They do of course have control (though not exclusive) of parts of the WB and East Jerusalem. They control Golan and South Lebanon.

    Of course, as has been pointed out by many, Arab Israelis are treated as "second-class" citizens.

    So, who will lead "the Palestinians". I don't know. There will need to be elections and the Palestinians will choose. This is one of the requirements, particularly the UK, of those States who will recognise the State of Palestine in a month's time.

    Israel is planning a "camp" in Rafah into which they will move all pre-vetted Gazans -(approx 2 million people). Presumably those who fail pre-vetting will be imprisoned/detained. Those who are allowed in will not be allowed free movement and will be imprisoned there. Israel will feed them (possibly) and look after their medical and social needs (possibly). So, a Concentration Camp - Smotrich used those words months ago.



  • #48885
    dmcdona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,907 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688541#Comment_123688541

    many here, including you, have been flagging Israel's deliberate starvation policy (they admitted it at the time) since March when Israel fully reneged on the ceasefire deal, recommenced their bombing and murdering and halted all aid entering Gaza.

    All we are seeing is the culmination of that policy and strategy playing out live in photos and video reports. It was inevitable for many in here.

    I do understand that many people do not follow the Gazan Genocide but the increase in mainstream media report in the last few weeks has galvanised the public who in turn have pressured their representatives - "not in my name".

    No-one, other than someone either morally bankrupt or emotionally damaged, could look at those reports and justify any of the atrocities Israel has and continues to perpetrate on a civilian population.

    Of course, we at least have an Irish Government that has been breve enough to stand up to Israeli lies and their utter inhumanity.

    This will stain Israel forever.



  • #48886
    dmcdona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,907 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688576#Comment_123688576

    it's simple - Israel withdraws from all illegally occupied territories and pays reparations per the ICJ judgement.

    Israel stays within its legal borders and Palestine does the same.

    Perhaps in future, they can work together to allow some kind of freedom of movement for work purposes. Israel issued permits for many thousands of Palestinians to work in Israel (usually low paid manual work). They'll likely need those workers to return at some point. Of course, Palestinians might be minded not to heed the call. With the world impetus on their side, I'd imagine all aid will be going to them to help rebuild - not Israel. Perhaps they won't need the shekels.



  • #48887
    Noworries!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 256 ✭✭Noworries!


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688647#Comment_123688647

    What Israel wants and what Israel gets are probably not going to align, that would be madness. In regards to South Lebanon and Golan, to be fair, they should be regarded separately, certainly the Golan Heights, which could be regarded as the price paid for losing a war. Also, Syria is massively unstable again, with attacks taking place against all groups. I'm sure Israel will pull out of Lebanon again when hezbollah settle down, which in fairness the Lebanese government themselves are calling for.



  • #48888
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,702 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688679#Comment_123688679

    Zionist supporting politicians and media in the West appear to have been banking on the war / conflict somehow coming to an end before the many Israeli war crimes were exposed to the western public. But this has gone horribly wrong on them - the crimes have become public knowledge and yet the bombing and starvation of Gaza has continued. This chain of events has guaranteed the end of Israeli influence in the West for decades or perhaps forever.



  • #48889
    dmcdona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,907 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688722#Comment_123688722

    We all know what Israel wants - they've been very vocal about that.

    But no-one wants to see another murderous regime perpetrate the same atrocities the world saw 80 years ago.

    Never again.



  • #48890
    dmcdona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,907 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688724#Comment_123688724

    Excellent point - borne out by Israel still saying there is no starvation in Gaza - debunked by the Guardian report someone kindly linked earlier.

    Only the utterly gullible and those who have no moral compass still swallow the Hasbara.



  • #48891
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,068 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688024#Comment_123688024

    They have not destroyed Hamas militarily.

    They have.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gk79xlzwjo



    They have not ended Hamas rule in Gaza.

    The game is up, when a coalition of supposedly friendly Arab states is asking Hamas to surrender. Appears to be a matter of time.



    They have not secured or released the hostages.

    Out of 251 hostages, only approximately 50 are left, and out of that 50, it appears only about 20 are still alive.

    Less than 10% of the hostages that were taken are still alive and left in Gaza.


    But please outline how you think the Israeli war on Gaza has been a success for Israel.

    Syria is out of the picture.
    Hezbollah has been neutralised and its leadership decimated
    Iran is at its weakest its ever been since the revolution
    The IDF military machine and its intelligence services are riding roughshod over its enemies in the region and are superior in every way.
    Hamas has been utterly destroyed from a military perspective. The organisation is frayed, rudderless and exists in only a few spots, with the wider Muslim world asking for it to put its arms down and let someone else run Gaza. Gangs run Gaza now, not Hamas.

    It's simply inconceivable to call this a loss for Israel. They have re-ordered the Middle Eastern map somewhat and are the regions super power in terms of military might and intellegence.

    Given you think Israel has lost this war, I presume you think that Hamas has won it?

    Do you think Iran won the last round of conflict too?



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  • #48892
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,068 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688215#Comment_123688215

    Then why wont Hamas release the last few hostages, give up its arms and go away?
    If it were all that simple, like.



  • #48893
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,068 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688005#Comment_123688005

    So you cant?

    That is a great tactic.

    Make a grand perjorative statement, but when asked to back it up, one is unable to but they stick by the lie.



  • #48894
    dmcdona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,907 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688753#Comment_123688753

    Is that the same Hamas that you just posted as having been defeated?

    That's a pretty spontaneous about-turn.



  • #48895
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,068 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688576#Comment_123688576

    A 2-state solution needs a Palestinian Authority that has legitimacy to rule on behalf of its people. Neither Hamas or Fatah has that, given one is genocidal Islamic fascists, and the other is clueless, corrupt and weak. Is there a 3rd way?

    Where are the leaders for Palestinians who would show the way?



  • #48896
    dmcdona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,907 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688746#Comment_123688746

    this is your IDF heroes riding roughshod and demonstrating their superiority over two little girls. Must give you pleasurable goosebumps.

    Warning to everyone else - it's distressing content

    https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/cjelp738zd7o


  • #48897
    Miniegg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Miniegg


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688753#Comment_123688753

    Read the below! I have posted it more than once.

    Rory Stewart Transcript:

    And there's another fundamental problem in this negotiation, which is that I was speaking to somebody who's very, very senior in Israeli national security, very close to Netanyahu. Who said to me, of course, when the hostages are returned, we will then have no reason not to wipe Gaza off the face of the earth.

    So how are you supposed to get a deal together when Hamas feels the hostages are their one guarantee on some form of restraint by the Israelis, that it's the only thing that's holding the Israelis back from going even further?

    Why would they honestly return the remaining hostages if... The sense they get is that when they return those remaining hostages, Netanyahu will just radically increase and redouble his efforts to wipe them all out. Why would they do that?



  • #48898
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,068 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688769#Comment_123688769

    Totally defeated no… mostly defeated, yes. Re-read my post. They still have some pockets of control, like I said..



    Hamas has been utterly destroyed from a military perspective. The organisation is frayed, rudderless and exists in only a few spots, 



  • #48899
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,068 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688776#Comment_123688776

    Yet that doesn't disprove the military superiority of the IDF in the region, does it.

    Do you agree with @SafeSurfer that Israel has been defeated?



  • #48900
    Miniegg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Miniegg


    You can believe this scenario is likely, or not believe it is likely Marko. I believe it is. You don't. It's a difference of opinion.

    My argument is to ensure safety of all civilians to insure this doesn't happen.

    Nobody here knows what that regime are capable of given they have gone this far.



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  • #48901
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,068 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123688779#Comment_123688779

    Anecdotal evidence that is..

    I'll repeat again and again. To say that the Israeli government are licking their lips at the prospect of killing a 2 million people in Gaza, but the only thing stopping them are 20 hostages, is farcical and fantastical.

    If a Government is so cruel and devious in the way you portray them, do you really think 20 hostages matters, in the grand scheme of things?

    We know what Trump wants, we know what the Israeli public wants, and we know what the IDF wants. They all want an end to the war. The keystone here is the hostages. Release them, and the war comes to an end. Everyone knows it. Every Hamas know it, even the Arab states know it… But somehow, some folks here don't…

    This is the last play by Hamas. People are starving, and the lack of an organised distribution of food into Gaza plays into their hands. They think (wrongly), that Israel will just call time, the UN will be back in, and Hamas can rebolster its organisation and it will go back to the way it was, and they have a stronger hand to play in future negotiations.
    They are in for a rude awakening.



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