Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

I just mean, recency bias is difficult to shake off. But when you look at what some of our past players achieved, we've had some phenomenal fellas who have distinguished themselves by doing extraordinary or unique things.

Yeah, fair enough.

Conscious I've quasi de-railed the thread here now, and I get it's difficult to compare across eras, but as I said from the outset, my initial post on this was more about emphasising just how good I think Sheehan is (he's the best hooker, and possibly the best front row player in the world right now IMO) than having a go at Keith Wood (who I think is an incredible player and an all time Irish great in his own right).

But Woody didn't just stand out amongst his teammates, he stood out amongst his peers; to reiterate a point I made above:

People often forget Wood was the first ever World Player of the Year winner, winning it ahead of all-time greats in Gregan, George Smith, Wilkinson and Drico.

JGP is in a fine vein of form for a few seasons now but it wasn't always ever thus. Especially those few seasons after he arrived on these shores.

Murray performed at the top level throughout most of his career.

At their peak you might have an argument for JGP but across the career Murray is comfortably the better player.

It doesn't need to be a direct comparison, does it? McBride was one of the top locks across these islands for fifteen years rather than twenty.

I remember reading that Mike Gibson played 60+ non-Test Lions matches.

They are completely different, I take your point - the only absolute consistency is that you're one of, or the best in your position.

Murray performed at the top level throughout most of his career.

I wouldn't go along with this. From about 2012/3 to 2018/19 he was one of the very best in the world, him and Aaron Smith were a cut above. I don't think that's been true for Murray at any point after 2019 RWC. He's had some really poor spells in that time as well.

For me, it was a mistake for Murray (and a few others) to tour Australia in summer 2018, and I think that tour exacerbated a neck issue that subsequently kept him out for a prolonged period. I think he lost a certain amount of his athleticism when he came back from that and never really recovered it.

He was still a quality top tier scrum half who delivered on some big days - notably the 2023 Grand Slam, but he wasn’t quite the player he was before it.

Ah he’s a class player and one of the first names on the team sheet but “best performer in most games”? That’s over stating it.

I don't underrate him at all. As a matter of fact I'm regularly raving about him. There's no doubt in my mind that he's the best hooker in world rugby.

What I'm pointing out is that he's in a pack with Furlong/Bealham, Porter, Beirne, McCarthy, Ryan, VDF and Doris.

How would Wood have done in a pack like that?

Wood played in a pretty average pack his whole career. Never even won a six nations. He excelled in very average teams. Many times he dragged his team's to wins.

He was the first world player of the year, that's an incredible achievement. Imagine being selected ahead of all New Zealand, South African and English players for the first award of the trophy. That shows how highly rated he was in the game worldwide.

Trying to say one is better than the other is impossible. Wood was the best in the world when he played, Sheehan is the best in the world for maybe the last two years and likely will be for many more.

Right now though if you had to pick it has to be Wood. He had a whole career and was World rugby player of the year.

Sheehan is early in his career and to this point has no awards of note.

The bar is a lot higher? They played in different eras. Fitness, weight rooms, diet and even psychology has improved massively. Sheehan is a much better player than Keith Wood ever was.

But if Keith Wood was a young man now, would he be ahead of Sheehan? That's impossible to call.

We are comparing players in their own eras. Wood was the best in his era, so good that he was awarded the first ever world player of the year award. Sheehan is the best hooker right now and for the past two years.

The differences in their eras, Sheehan has played in a world class pack since he came into the Ireland team. Wood played in an average at best group of forwards.

Would Sheehan impress as much playing with an average group of forwards?. We most likely will never know the answer to that.

Wood carried a bad team to wins. Sheehan has never had to carry a team to a win. He's played his part and sometimes a big part but the team around him has always been very good.

The only way to compare is to gauge the impact of both players in their eras. As regards Ireland Wood made a bigger impact, he was a much more crucial player.

If you took Wood out of his Ireland teams that was a huge loss. If you take Sheehan out the impact is not severe.

Having said all that I do believe that when Sheehan is 30 we will say he's the best ever from any era. He's a phenomenal player. He needs years and he needs some individual awards to become the greatest.

I think he'll get the awards and I think it's very likely he will not only be rated the best hooker but the best player to ever put on a green shirt.

As I said I'm a huge fan of Sheehan, I love watching him more than any other player. It annoys me when he's taken off because he's not tired and can easily play the full 80. It grates me because I'm going to see 15-20 minutes less of him.

I'm not disrespecting Sheehan in any way here.

A valid example is Sean Fitzpatrick whose rated as the greatest hooker of all time.

Was he as good of a player as Keith Wood? Not even close to him but he was from a different era to Keith Wood and his impact was huge in the teams he played for. Fitzpatrick ended his career shortly after Wood began his but the professional had just begun and Wood had the benefit of massive improvement in training and diet etc. Again comparing players from different eras is not comparing today's player physically and fitness wise with the man from yesteryear. That would be ludicrous.

And equally you could argue that there's recency bias when it comes to Sheehan etc. you can argue both sides of the coin.

(And Fwiw, I think Dusatoir completely deserved his award, he was ridiculous in that RWC).

@FtD v2

During Wood's career, Wales and Scotland were not the "usual suspects". Both won a 5 Nations while Wood was playing - Ireland's last win had been in the Sxities.

Not trying to make a wider point about your discussion, but both teams were comfortably better than us and dismissing wins against them is just ignoring the context of the day.

I remember being utterly delighted that Italy were joining to make it the Six Nations, because then we might not get the wooden spoon every year.

And where did Ireland come all those years, for context?

In fact - I'll answer myself.

When we beat Wales in 99, we came a spot below them, in fourth. France, a team against whom a win would count, came last. We came ahead of them on points difference. Wales was our only win.

We were a "middling" team as well.

Wales won a 5 Nations in 1994, Scotland won a 5 Nations in 1999.

Ireland won zero. They wouldn't win a Six Nations until after Wood had retired, in 2009.

I'd say during Wood's career, Ireland was consistently an also-ran against whom wins against Wales and Scotland counted for something.

Ireland had an abject run from 1994-1999, finishing 4th (1994 & 1995) and then 5th (1996-1998), and 4th again in 1999. Scotland & Wales finished ahead of us most of those years. Exceptions being: Wales finished 5th in 1995, Scotland finished 5th in 1994 etc.

From 2000-2003 Ireland finished 2nd twice ('01 & '03) and 3rd twice ('00 and '02) - finishing ahead of Wales & Scotland in all of those years.

This is all a sideshow though tbh, and distracting from my main point. I'm not disputing Ireland were utterly **** in this era. I'm not disputing, for the most part, that Scotland and Wales were better than us (for the beginning of Wood's era, they were worse by the latter half).

The point originally made was:

Wood carried a bad team to wins. Sheehan has never had to carry a team to a win.

I don't think this is hugely relevant or true as it happens. As I pointed out, he didn't win very many games at all, and 60% of his wins came against USA, Japan, Tonga, Italy, Romania, Namibia, Samoa, Russia.

Even his wins against Scotland and Wales came in the era where we were clearly the better side and comfortably finishing ahead of them year over year in the 6 Nations.