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Flight to Gatwick crashes near airport in Ahmedabad, India,

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,636 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Yes that was my point, it's not the same. If the passenger in a car reaches for the handbrake you will be like wtf are you doing. On a plane though the pilot monitoring may also reach for buttons in that area for valid reasons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I don't know as I am not a pilot. That's hard to say. I would have thought the other one would have noticed it the very second.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭blackvalley


    Well no lesser authority than Willie Walsh has suggested that video recording in the cockpit would be beneficial. Not necessarily in preventing the particular accidents but in making investigations of accidents easier and therefore perhaps preventing others. Nobody wants cameras pointed in the faces of flight crews but a camera focused on the control panel would surely be unobtrusive.
    As regards your comments to the great unwashed about all the “ gauges, buzzers, warning lights and monitoring systems attached to the engines I am very aware of them having worked in the industry many years ago. HOWEVER all the lights, buzzers, bells, whistles and monitors of which you speak did not prevent the WRONG engine being shut down in “ Kegwort crash, South Africa flight 8911 , Transair flight 810 , Azerbaijan flight A- 56 and possibly several others.
    You would like to think that having a small camera mounted to monitor the engine externally would prevent even the most incompetent pilots from shutting down the wrong engine. After all smoke, flames fuel or sparks being ejected should be a good clue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,995 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Anyone capable of miss identifying which engine was on fire because they couldn't differentiate between left and right is also capable of failing to differentiate between left and right video images.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭blackvalley


    Are you suggesting that some pilots are incapable of looking at two separate screens with “ Right engine “ on one and with” Left engine “ on the other and being incapable of distinguishing between them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,404 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Well unless it's a driving instructor and the person driving is a learning then that instructor be they male or female do have a right to touch car controls if needed be it the pedals or the steering wheel.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,968 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The recordings will be analysed to check for sounds corresponding to the switches being moved.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭tara73


    https://www.firstpost.com/explainers/air-india-ai-171-crash-fuel-switches-tail-wreckage-investigators-13909594.html

    don't know whether this is a reliable source/media outlet. but regardless sounds hard to believe an 'electric fire' in the tail which just affected the fuel flow. I mean, why did the official report precisely stated, the fuel switches were moved? they wouldn't claim that in their official report if there's the slightest doubt it was an electrical fire in the tail which caused the fuel cut off. anyway, probably just BS



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,636 ✭✭✭Cordell


    The fuel cutoff switches movements from run to cutoff and then back to run were registered by the EAFR and their timestamps are consistent with engines spooling down and subsequent auto-start sequences for both engines. So we can speculate about the reasons, or about who moved them, but there can be no doubt at this point that they were moved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Questions ….

    Just asking as a layperson. Who turned on the fuel switches before takeoff, maybe ground crew, or a maintenance engineer?

    And my other question is, would it be possible to "balance" the switches between the On-Off position, like to pull out and then balance them so they're teetering on the On or Off position if you know what I mean.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,803 ✭✭✭notAMember


    Pilot switches them on, it's part of startup sequence. It varies by aircraft, but typically you turn on a starter motor which rotates the engine blades. You watch the panel, once the rotation is at a certain speed, you switch on the fuel flow and the ignition switch. (step 5 in the sequence below for turbines)

    No, there isn't a teetering position. They are spring loaded to be either in one position or the other, and there's a little cap/clip on top that locks them in position.

    Pre-Start Checks

    1. Pre-Flight Inspection: Ensure the aircraft is safe and ready for flight.
    2. Cockpit Preparation:
      - Check that all necessary documents (e.g., flight plan, charts) are available.
      - Ensure that the seats, seatbelts, and harnesses are secure.

    Engine Start Procedure

    1. Power On:
      - Turn on the battery and/or external power.
    2. Fuel System Checks:
      - Select the appropriate fuel tank.
      - Check fuel quantity and ensure fuel valves are open.
    3. Avionics Power:
      - Turn on avionics and check settings.
    4. Pre-Start Briefing:
      - Review emergency procedures and roles.
    5. Engine Start Sequence:
      Throttle: Set to idle (or as specified).
      Mixture: Set to rich (for piston engines).
      Propeller Control: Full forward (if applicable).
      Starter Engaged:
    • For piston engines, engage the starter.
    • For turbine engines, follow the specific start sequence (e.g., fuel flow, ignition).
    1. Monitor Instruments:
      - Check oil pressure, RPM, and other engine parameters as the engine starts.
    2. Post-Start Checks:
      - Ensure all engine parameters are within normal operating ranges.
      - Turn off any unnecessary electrical equipment to conserve power.

    Taxi and Takeoff Preparation

    1. Flight Controls Check:
      - Ensure full movement of controls and check for proper response.
    2. Navigation and Communication Setup:
      - Set frequencies and navigation aids.
    3. Flaps and Trim:
      - Set flaps and trim to the takeoff position.

    Final Checks

    1. Before Taxi Checklist:
      - Go through the checklist to ensure all systems are ready for taxiing.
    2. Clearance:
      - Obtain taxi clearance from Air Traffic Control (ATC).

    Taxiing

    • Follow ATC instructions for taxiing to the runway.

    Takeoff

    • Perform the takeoff checklist and prepare for departure.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,050 ✭✭✭plodder


    The pilots go through various checklists. First to make sure the switches are off and then as part of starting the engines in another checklist to switch them on. There's no way the switches can hover between two positions.

    An interesting theory I just came across suggests that the pilot who turned the switches off might have been the one who asked why the other pilot had done it, and the other (blameless) pilot just answered he didn't (correctly). It could have been an attempt to pin the blame on the other guy.

    That might explain the reticence of the investigators to identify which pilot was which, if the other evidence such as "panic" in the voice of the other pilot was pointing towards him not being the culprit.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭tara73


    interesting theory. But I don't really believe it. I still can't get my head around why they don't tell the full story what happened and what was said in the remaining last seconds before the touch down. I mean, if people put themselves in the position of the one of the two guys in the cockpit who DIDN'T switch them. It's not that difficult I would say: it would be kind of an instincttive, panicdriven reaction to switch the buttons back to the run position in like 2-3 seconds. Nobody would argue further or waste anymore seconds whatshowever which could mean live or death for over 240 people. So it's still a mystery why it took 10 seconds to switch them back to run. And in 'danger' some poster might ask me again if I ever give my head a wobble (no, only an indian bobble…🤣) my first guess!! is there've been a physical fight between the pilots.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,858 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Honestly have you ever been on a plane?

    You think that at takeoff thrust the pilots got out of their seats and had a fight? Give your head another wobble!

    On this plane the cut off switches are behind and below the thrust levers, quite easy to see that pilot monitoring switched these without pilot flying noticing during rotation for me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭tara73


    wow, as expected, what a qualified answer to my post, I'm impressed..wobble,wobble.🤣🤣anyway, just leave it at that, not taking anymore bait!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭tara73


    question to people here who know: will the officials to the investigation release any more news in the meantime or is it standard the public will hear nothing anymore until the final report in say 1-2 years?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,858 ✭✭✭weisses


    One on the flightdeck decided to kill himself plus all on board …. its not that difficult to conclude



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,050 ✭✭✭plodder


    Potentially, there could be interim statements every 12 months, if the investigation were to take that long. But, it's hard to see this investigation taking longer than a year. So, my guess would be that the next report will be the final one.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,114 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Sorry for off topic posting -I’m testing here, as I can’t reply on another thread. Not sure what’s going on.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,050 ✭✭✭plodder


    Final report due in the next few weeks.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c775vvz0kydo

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,968 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Question is whether the Indian authorities will face up to that or not.

    There was one a few years ago in China which went very hush-hush, but in the last few weeks the NTSB released the flight recorder data under freedom of information, it leaves no doubt it was a deliberate act on the flight deck.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,050 ✭✭✭plodder


    Another interim holding report was published last Friday. So, no final report yet.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6214prydklo

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



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