Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

What I do notice is there's plenty of the old 'no true sportsman/scientist/Scotsman' fallacy stuff going on alright, it's particularly prevalent in this discussion, let alone outside of this discussion. However, I don't notice that all the people advocating for this are older and are A or B. Certainly, I don't rank Simone Biles as older, or A, and definitely not B, cos she's fcuking savage 😁

However, it was one particular eyebrow-raising comment that left fans fuming on social media.   

'That was very unexpected, especially in a category of all men. So thank you guys so much,' she began. 

She continued to thank her support network before dropping the controversial concluding comment. 'I believe in the power of sport, the power of us, and, of course, the power of she,' Biles added. 

Her reference to the 'power of she', as well as her taking the time to highlight the fact she beat out a number of male athletes for the award, stirred controversy online after it came just weeks after she found herself embroiled in a bitter spat with Riley Gaines over transgender athletes. 

Simone Biles sparks fan fury with 'ironic' woke gender jibe in 2025 ESPYs speech after Riley Gaines trans feud | Daily Mail Online

Nor do I rank Emily Campbell as older, A and again definitely not B -

However Campbell, who is a medal contender having won European gold in April, said: 'She's a human being and she has feelings and she's qualified for this competition fairly like everyone else. The IOC have rules we all have to abide by. The only person's performance that I can control is my one.

'I've got to make sure I'm completely in control of that and I go out in the best shape I can and have no excuses.'

Weightlifter Emily Campbell defends the right of Laurel Hubbard to compete at the Tokyo Olympics | Daily Mail Online

Asking and answering your own question for someone else based upon what you imagine they would say, surely doesn't need me to point out the issue there.

I agree that the people governing these events need to be focussed on fairness, equality and integrity of competition, but you and I clearly have very different ideas about what constitutes fairness, equality and integrity of competition, and I don't know what you hope would be achieved by limiting opinions only to science and athletes, notwithstanding the fact that nobody who doesn't already share your opinion is likely to agree to go along with it to spare your feelings.

While Navratilova appears to have disappeared up her own arse in recent years, I don't imagine she would agree to self-exclude herself from the conversation any time soon either, any more than anyone should have to self-exclude themselves from the conversation to spare other peoples feelings. I don't think it's in any way limited to the older generation either, with athletes like Noah Lyles and Gout Gout (great name for a sprinter 😂) modelling what healthy competition looks like, with both athletes having massive respect for each other and being role models for anyone who isn't remotely interested in athletics to emulate -

Despite a headwind, he crossed the line to win in just 20.10 seconds. The result proved popular with the crowd at the Stade Louis II, with Gout milking the applause on his victory lap. However, he then faced questions from the media as to why he opted not to compete in the actual League 200m race.

That was won by the Olympic 100m champion Noah Lyles. He bettered Gout’s time with 19.88 seconds, although the headwind had eased by the time the main race began.

“I didn’t compete in the main race because I just want to slowly get used to it, there is no point putting me in big races when I am running at the world championships,” Gout explained. “The goal now is to go out there and have a little bit of fun.”

Gout Gout refuses to challenge Noah Lyles after breaking Usain Bolt record | Other | Sport | Express.co.uk

Gout has a fantastic head on his shoulders too - while Usain Bolt was reminded of his glory days in seeing Gout go, Gout didn't let it go to his head -

In late 2024, Bolt sent a direct message on Instagram - in response to a video of one of Gout's runs - saying "he looks like young me".

Gout is pleased with the comparisons, but wants to make his own mark.

"I do see it," Gout told Nine last year. "My stride length is pretty long, my knee height is pretty high and just the amount of tallness I get when I'm running.

"I'm just me trying to be me. I do sometimes look like him, but obviously I'm making a name for myself, and I think I've done that pretty well.

"Being compared to Usain Bolt feels great but I would like to put my personality in the upcoming story."

Who is Gout Gout? Profile, records, and best quotes from teenage Australian sprinter - BBC Sport

It isn't 'they' who say anything (unless Ben Shapiro has now decided that's what his personal pronouns are), it was indeed Ben Shapiro, who with his own set of 'facts', which are nothing more than his personal opinions based upon his personal beliefs, decided that nobody else's feelings mattered but his own. In a similar fashion -

His own set of "facts", just like you maybe? You have yet to present any of course…any day now.

Whereas one is expected to rely on your imagination which you have chosen to substitute for reality is a much stronger argument than reality, isn't it?

By imagination, you are referring to the scientific facts I have posted? Where males are stronger, faster, more powerful etc than females? But we will go with what a Frecnh rugby player in womens division 3 has to say over that, right?

That's not making your point for you, the two players involved were women, that IS the point. And yet again you ask me to use my imagination because reality doesn't correspond to your imagination.

Nowhere did I ask you to use your imagination, just accept biological facts, this is a stretch for you it seems.

That obviously depends on what news you decide to read, it's understandable that you would be more attuned to news which supports your already held beliefs, which reinforces your world view, as opposed to having to acknowledge reality -

Ellia Green, Australian Olympic gold medalist and former rugby union player, came out as transgender on Tuesday. 

Green, the first Olympian to come out as a transgender man, represented Australia in the women’s rugby sevens, winning Gold at the 2016 Rio Olympics and Silver at the 2018 Commonwealth Games. 

Green came out in a heartfelt speech at the opening of the Bingham Cup’s international summit on ending transphobia and homophobia in sports. Bingham Cup also known as the Gay Rugby World Cup, is the world’s largest amateur rugby union tournament, and is named after Mark Bingham, a hero of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The 10th Bingham Cup is being held at Ottawa, Canada.

“I promised myself that when my rugby career ended, I would continue to live the rest of my life in the identity… in the body that I should have,” said Green who began his transition journey, after he retired in 2020. 

Hold on…They came out as trans in 2022, won the sevens, gold medal and silver as a woman…now identify as a man. What do you think this proves at all?

https://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby/olympian-ellia-green-makes-rugby-union-comeback-as-a-man/news-story/f35d3cd8e00511ea7de838c08d872f64

"Fast forward three years and Green decided it was time to get the boots back on, joining the Sydney Convicts in the men’s NSW Suburban Rugby Competition.". They are competing in a small league, and not competitively. All of their achievements were as a woman…so what are you on about?

The Mark Kendall Bingham Memorial Tournament (referred to as the Bingham Cup), a biennial international rugby union competition predominantly for gay and bisexual men, was established in 2002 in his memory.

Mark Bingham - Wikipedia

What has a gay person got to do with this? This is a very weird reference.

Nowhere did I ask you to use your imagination, just accept biological facts, this is a stretch for you it seems.

You did -

You are making my point for me, imagine this was a male…this would be a far common occurance.

The rest of it just reads like you imagine I can't tell the difference between someone who is genuinely stupid, and someone whom it's clear is just pretending. As a reference point - Ben Shapiro whose quip you parrotted earlier, is genuinely stupid. You're far from that.

Apologies volchista, I missed your response to my earlier post, I wasn't deliberately ignoring you or anything else. To address your points though -

Being a scientist has nothing to do with whether you can make head nor tail of my post. In this instance it's not you, it's definitely me (cos I understand at least you make a genuine effort and don't just pretend you don't understand). I also know of you that at least your background is in the field of biology and not an unrelated scientific discipline where you would still get to call yourself a scientist, but it wouldn't be of any relevance.

Why not use the handicap system to allow them to compete fairly against men?

Because they don't want to, would seem to be the most obvious reason? I can think of many others, but that's the most obvious one.

And the reason that matters is because of the increasing number of allegations of trans identifying males exploiting their alleged trans identity to indulge in voyeurism and/or to expose themselves to women in a way that would lead to criminal convictions for any other males.

Allegations though, on their own, have never led to anyone being convicted of a criminal offence. A conviction requires at least evidence which would support a successful prosecution. In circumstances where the allegations lead to a successful prosecution, trans identity or none is neither here nor there, they are convicted on the basis of evidence, not on the basis of characteristics they share in common with anyone else. Insufficient evidence to secure a prosecution is one of the reasons why men who do actually commit horrendous abuse of women often don't see the inside of a jail cell. Sexual harrassment and sexual abuse of athletes also something which sports organisations have historically turned a blind eye to, in order to preserve the reputation of the organisation -

Jaeger said she complained to WTA officials after the incident and was threatened with reprisals."I said this has got to stop. Every week I have to worry about this (expletive)," Jaeger said. "They said 'if you say one more word about this, we'll make sure your sister's scholarship at Stanford gets pulled.'"Every time I tried to stand up for myself, I was threatened with someone else getting harmed."

Andrea Jaeger: Sexually harassed 'at least 30 times' by female official | Reuters

After claiming that only Riley Gaines objected to Lia Thomas’ presence in the women’s changing room, it now turns out that several women were unhappy about Thomas’ behaviour there, but that they were explicitly told thwt they would be boycotted and would have no career if they didn’t shut up and accept it.

Alleged behaviour? I had serious credibility issues with the first time you brought that up. My stance hasn't changed, especially when Riley claims to have seen Thomas' penis, but then suggested the audience rely on their imagination when asked to describe it. Presidents have been impeached for less -

As for the question everyone really wants to know the answer to—was Paula’s anatomical recollection accurate?—Monica Lewinsky, a person who was in a position to know, had doubts. In one of her Q&A sessions with Starr’s prosecutors, Lewinsky said she didn’t care to describe the president’s sex organs beyond saying she disagreed with Paula Jones’ description. And author Ken Gormley notes in The Death of American Virtue, a definitive history of the Clinton impeachment, that “evidence from confidential sources now establishes with near certainty that the alleged ‘distinguishing characteristic’ described by Paula Jones at the time of her encounter with then-Governor Clinton in 1991 did not exist, as an anatomical matter.”

I said at the time you brought it up that Riley's claims could easily be verified, and Riley knowing this too suggests that's the reason she didn't care to get into specifics, but would rather leave it to the audience's imagination.

Not to mention the Darlington nurses, Sandie Peggie etc- because it’s not just about sporting performances. It’s also about women’s right to privacy and dignity, and not to be forced to become objects for male sexual thrills.

Seeing as you mentioned them anyway, I'll admit I have no interest whatsoever in that particular case. What I will say though is the broader point you bring up about women's right to privacy and dignity, that isn't just a woman's right, it's a human right that is conferred upon all members of society, and that extends to anyone being protected from becoming objects for anyone else's thrills, sexual or otherwise, if that were actually happening. From what I read of the case the other night (I wish I hadn't, to be honest, it's so stupid it really does beggar belief), it is not happening.

It doesn't explain why you forgot that you'd asked me to imagine it in the first place.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt it seems, that was my mistake.

He does, because you used his quip without any attribution to claim that 'they say', as opposed to having to acknowledge that it's Ben Shapiro who came up with it in the first place. I just don't believe it's right to pick on misfortunes Frank, that's all it is, that's why I don't bother entertaining either Shapiro or Huberman. I've tried on numerous occasions to have a conversation with you in good faith, but all the indications suggest you're not remotely interested in a conversation in good faith. Your sole interest appears to be in attempting to ram your nonsense down my throat, on a point I have already stated I don't disagree with -

Oh dear, he doesn't. What he said is quite correct, and I am not a fan of his by any means, I can agree with him on that though. And when applied to scientific facts about humans, it rings very true. You have never entered a converstaion in this thread in good faith, ever. Your last sentence just proves that by calling science "nonsense", yet you seem to be completely fine with never even trying to acknowledge the fact that males are stronger athletes than females. You ramble on that women should train harder, or that the rules are set up better for men etc, which is total nonsense. Keep believing that if you want though, just don't insult the intelligence of the people who read this forum.

Wonderful, big woop!

And on that note, I'll assume we're done here because I'm off out for a drink. Take that as a cop-out if it makes you feel good about yourself.

It is a cop out, it basically carves up your whole argument, and you know it as well. Enjoy your drinks though.

It was actually Lia Thomas who brought us to this point where things are finally getting back to normal imo.

Most people knew nothing about men competing in womens' sports (me included) and then along comes this girl, over six feet tall, built like an absolute brick shitehouse, with a massive bull neck, who couldn't have looked more like a man, swimming in the girls' team.

Up to then the sporting organisations involved had been trying to keep things on the down low but that was the point when a lot of people sat up and took notice and said WTAF is going on here!

If nobody cares about womens' sport how do you explain the huge amount of support for athletes like Katie Taylor, the Williams sisters, Caitlyn Clarke etc etc etc.

It becomes obvious the more I read your posts Jack that you don't care about female sport or female athletes either.

It is obvious to all on this thread where your loyalties lie.

I guess I wasn’t clear. This is what I was referring to that I said very few people have any real interest in -

…ignoring the actual reality of the issues which are far more prevalent in women’s sports…

As for the athletes you mention, in the context of a country with a population of 340 million people, any amount of support for the athletes in question looks like a huge amount when it is amplified by social media. It’s how an athlete attending an Ivy League college gains notoriety in spite of the fact that she finished fifth in the collegiate equivalent of an egg and spoon race, while there’s hardly a word about the winner - Stanford alum and Canadian Olympian, Taylor Ruck, who could still have won the race if she’d been wearing a pair of breeze block flippers -

Stanford junior and Canadian Olympian Taylor Ruck claimed the title, out-touching Cal senior Isabel Ivey at the wall in 1 minute, 41.12 seconds to set a McAuley Aquatic Center record. It was the second time a pool record was set in the 200 freestyle at the NCAA championships. Ruck's time was 2.02 seconds off Missy Franklin's NCAA record of 1:39.10 set in 2015.

"There's been chatter about Lia being here, but I just try to zone everything out," Ruck said. "I was excited to be able to race someone who goes so fast."

https://www.espn.co.uk/college-sports/story/_/id/33540686/penn-swimmer-lia-thomas-places-fifth-200-yard-freestyle-final

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Ruck

It becomes obvious the more I read your posts Jack that you don't care about female sport or female athletes either.

It is obvious to all on this thread where your loyalties lie.

I’m shocked Bogey 😂

Even a single athlete who is only in some sh*tty division who has an unfair advantage is one too many, you do understand that right?

No, I don’t understand it, primarily because of the fact that it’s not based on anything other than your personal opinion. That’s not to suggest I don’t understand why you’re of that opinion, I do. I just don’t care for the sentiment is all, because it’s an easy accusation that someone has an unfair advantage, an accusation regularly levelled at winners, by losers -

Prominent athletes claimed to be trans include Serena Williams and Katie Ledecky.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestigation

A man who questioned a 9-year-old girl’s gender at an athletic event in British Columbia has spurred outrage in Canada after one of the girl’s mothers said the man wrongly insisted her daughter was either a boy or transgender, and demanded proof that she was female.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/world/canada/girl-athlete-trans-gender.html

It’s the kind of nonsense sentiment that fuels moral panics -

A moral panic is a widespread feeling of fear that some evil person or thing threatens the values, interests, or well-being of a community or society.

It is "the process of arousing social concern over an issue", usually elicited by moral entrepreneurs and sensational mass media coverage, and exacerbated by politicians and lawmakers. Moral panic can give rise to new laws aimed at controlling the community.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

There is something to panic about as well: women being injured by male athletes, losing scholarships to men, having to share changing rooms with a fully intact male who is very obviously attracted to women, making sacrifices and dedicating a huge amount of time and effort to their chosen sport only to have a cheater with no shame come along and take away any chance of success from them, being slandered and pilloried by certain groups with an agenda when they tried to speak out and stand up for their rights.

Jack you do yourself no favours on here with your obsession and hatred of Riley Gaines.

Riley Gaines has been the voice of reason and a beacon of light in the whole sh1t show that is men in women's sports. In the US they call it an 80/20 issue, that is to say at least 80% of the population agree with Riley Gaines stance. She argues that men (however they identify) should NOT be in women's & girls sporting competitions, and who would disagree with her … I wonder 🤔

I'm guessing most people here would also agree with Riley's opinion on this issue. Fair dues to Trump too, for it was his impetus when he signed his executive order that sparked the fightback against the ideology.

Big kudos to Riley Gaines 👍

Paula Scanlan deserves credit too

sex is not assigned at birth.

Sex "assigned" at birth …. but only if you believe in transgender ideology. The theory being that when born you are arbitrarily "assigned" a sex which may or may not correspond to your true identity. That way you can claim to be born in the wrong body, then "transition" and compete as the the opposite sex !!

Obviously it's bonkers, but that's where we find ourselves today. Battling against an ideology that is based on nothing but an ideology. Thankfully (as I mentioned before) the fightback is in full flow with people like Riley Gaines & Paula Scanlan trying their best to educate the 20% of Americans who are confused or brainwashed into accepting that men should compete against women & girls. Remembering of course that they claim to have been "assigned" the wrong body at birth 🤨

You didn’t give me any benefit of the doubt though. When I pointed out that you had asked me to use my imagination, you responded that you hadn’t asked me to imagine anything, either implying that I had imagined it, or I was lying. I provided evidence that you appeared to have forgotten. That’s what it means to give someone the benefit of the doubt. 

And here we go again. You’ve never provided evidence, you’ve provided stories. You can’t provide evidence because the science that exists, counters your argument totally.

You didn’t give me any benefit of the doubt though. When I pointed out that you had asked me to use my imagination, you responded that you hadn’t asked me to imagine anything, either implying that I had imagined it, or I was lying. I provided evidence that you appeared to have forgotten. That’s what it means to give someone the benefit of the doubt. 

I asked you to provide evidence of your earlier claim of the existence of the sheer volume of data on transgender athletes performance, you provided evidence of something, but the vast amount of it was irrelevant to the question I asked, and when I pointed to the one study in which the findings were related, but the results were inconclusive due to the limitations of the study, and it was stated they could not be used to make arbitrary decisions about policy in relation to transgender athletes, you presented half a sentence from the Abstract, out of context, and put it to me that it wasn’t very scientific. That, Frank, is some seriously bad faith bullshìt. I was initially being polite in calling your efforts nonsense, because I don’t want to be rude to anyone. It’s a reflection on me more than it says anything about them.

It’s bad faith to point out that transwomen athletes are in fact biological males? Give me a break with that, you’re using that now to weasel your way out of this, again. As it’s been pointed out, males have advantages over females in sports due to their biology, this doesn’t change one bit once someone decides they feel like they are in the wrong body or feel like a woman. They retain the advantages they inherited from birth. You calling that a bad father argument just highlights your complete ignorance to that scientific fact. Simple as that.

The rest of your post? Try harder.

Do you want me to write a wall of meaningless text like yours next time?

Ok you obviously either accidentally, or deliberately and intentionally missed the point there in response to your claims of “assigned at birth” having anything to do with the “born in the wrong body” phraseology. The “born in the wrong body” phraseology preceded the whole “assigned at birth” stuff by decades, literally, decades, and it was the language used at the time when Jenner and Richards were trying to figure their shìt out. It’s obviously troubling you, but like everything to do with language - it evolves. You might as well be getting annoyed because someone speaks a language you don’t, and they won’t speak your language. They won’t use your words to describe themselves or express themselves, The “born in the wrong body” language is used by people who don’t know any other way to explain themselves, to themselves, let alone anyone else -

https://www.news24.com/you/caitlyn-jenner-considered-travelling-to-denmark-for-sex-change-operation-20170728

I already explained why Jenner wouldn’t compete with women, he has no reason to. In the same way that most people who are transgender are no different than people who aren’t - most people just don’t care about competing in sports, let alone have the interest in or dedication or desire or passion it takes to get to elite levels in their chosen sport, or sports (as athletes at elite levels tend to be multi-sport athletes).

It’s not because Jenner knows his physiology that he would never condone the likes of Lia Thomas identifying as a girl (not just so they could compete with girls, I’ve already pointed out why it would be a liability to do so, certainly of no benefit whatsoever), it’s because Jenner knows that they would be subject to a tirade of abuse from your heroes rather than enjoying their brief moment in the spotlight in a women’s corset appearing on one of the most popular women’s fashion magazines in the US, or appearing on Tucker Carlson show, just basically that they have a fear of being ostracised by people whose opinions of them actually matter to them. They’re so desperate for acceptance and validation as Caitlyn Jenner that they’ll kiss arse even when it tastes like shìt. That’s how they’re able to come out with bullshìt like this in order to make themselves out to be a victim -

"It was easy to come out as trans, it was harder to come out as Republican," the Olympic gold medalist said at an American Unity Fund brunch at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland this morning, where the Republican National Convention is underway.

It appeals to the people whose opinion of them, matter to them, in the same way as Trump reads a room like he’s illiterate -

Earlier this year, Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump said that Jenner could use whatever bathroom she wanted at his hotel at a time when some Republicans were pushing for so-called "bathroom bills" to, among other things, ban people from using restrooms that don't match the biological sex indicated on their birth certificate.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/caitlyn-jenner-hard-trans-republican-ben-carson-slams/story?id=40742209