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Senior ministers concerned about effects of Occupied Territories Bill.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,029 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Ireland being part of the EU has every right to start the ball rolling. Good leadership qualities.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    You keep saying this but, despite repeated invitation, you offer no argument in support of it.

    There's been a sustained shift in European opinion against Israel, and this is still ongoing. Countries that previously were strong supporters of Israel are now criticising it or taking steps adverse to its interests — e.g. the Netherlands calling for a review of the EU/Israel co-operation agreement. And even in countries that still support Israel there's evidence of an increasing political cost that must be paid to do so — e.g. in Germany Israel now holds a net favourability rating of -44, the lowest ever, making the government more and more nervous about its policy of unquestioning uncritical support, with the result that you now have a German chancellor saying publicly that what Israel is doing in Gaza "can no longer be justified as a fight against terrorism", and the German foreign minister saying that Israel cannot subject Germany to "compulsory solidarity". That would have been unthinkable a couple of years ago.

    These things don't happen in a vacuum — any one state acting on this matter supports the actions of other states, and increases the presssure on states who fail to act. Unilateral action by some states is not an alternative to shared action by the EU, but rather part of the process which will increase the likelihood and scope of shared action. The enactment of the OTB might mean little viewed in isolation, but it shouldn't be viewed in isolation because it isn't an isolated phenomenon; it's part of a wider international trend. The Israelis are clearly bothered by it, which suggests that they don't share your view that it's vacuous virtue-signalling, meaning nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,204 ✭✭✭political analyst


    That doesn't mean that Germany will substantially change its policy towards Israel. After all, we know what the anti-Jewish attitudes of some politicians in Germany led to in the past - and Israel is the only state that has a Jewish-majority.

    An EU country that has voted for a review of the Israel trade agreement - or at least abstained on the matter (i.e. Austria, which has a pro-Israel government) - won't necessarily vote for sanctions. Voting for the review was meant to put pressure on Israel - and it has worked because Israel has agreed to let more aid convoys enter Gaza.

    Qualified majority voting means that the countries that didn't vote for the review - Germany, Italy, Hungary etc - still hold all the cards, unlike Zelensky at that infamous meeting at the White House.

    The Israelis are bothered by the OTB because they regard it as an attack on them - and any other state who was in that situation would react in the same way as they have.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,926 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    https://www.thejournal.ie/alan-shatter-otb-6763175-Jul2025/

    Jewish man doesn't like bill that targets Jews… In other news, water is wet and sand is dry except when sand gets wet obviously!

    I guess, technically it doesn't target the Jews who would be citizens of the West Bank and Gaza, if anything it will help to bring about peace for those Jews as it would all Palestinian citizens



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Great waste of time during a housing and refuge crisis, soon to be followed by an infrastructure crisis. All to virtue signal and to no benefit to the Irish public. I’m sure this will resolve all the troubles of the Middle East. Can’t imagine any stance taken by our government might possibly backfire. Ah sure, he’ll just retire on his cosy pension if that happens. So brave.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,926 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    But if it provides a deflection where we all think the govt are great for what they are doing for Palestine, then how bad? Don't forget healthcare crisis by the way. 264 on trolleys this morning



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,927 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Just on the topic of there being no evidence that Israeli textbooks contain material that might result in Israeli children hating Palestinians:

    https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/10.3366/hls.2013.0062

    Specifically, Israeli history, geography and civics books must, first and foremost, relay the Zionist message of the Jews’ historic rights to the land of Palestine/Israel (as a condition for their acceptance by the Ministry of Education into the officially sanctioned curriculum)

    Some quotes from an inerview with the author:

    Nurit Peled-Elhanan, an Israeli academic, mother and political radical, summons up an image of rows of Jewish schoolchildren, bent over their books, learning about their neighbours, the Palestinians. But, she says, they are never referred to as Palestinians unless the context is terrorism.

    They are called Arabs. "The Arab with a camel, in an Ali Baba dress. They describe them as vile and deviant and criminal, people who don't pay taxes, people who live off the state, people who don't want to develop," she says. "The only representation is as refugees, primitive farmers and terrorists. You never see a Palestinian child or doctor or teacher or engineer or modern farmer."

    Children, she says, grow up to serve in the army and internalise the message that Palestinians are "people whose life is dispensable with impunity. And not only that, but people whose number has to be diminished."

    The argument made earlier that:

    There's no evidence that Israel's education system has indoctrinated Jewish children with hatred towards Arabs. Therefore, there's no evidence that most Israeli Jews have anything against Arabs.

    is truly infantile in its stupidity.

    Post edited by osarusan on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    How many Jewish terrorist attacks in Europe? How many Islamic terrorist attacks in Europe? It’s like there’s a difference…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,927 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Huh?

    What does that have to do with my post?

    My post which did only one thing, which was to point out that the claim that Israeli textbooks do not contain anti-Palestinian material was incorrect.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,029 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    A true Zionist could not have said it better. Deflect, play down and scaremonger.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,029 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Islamophobia is rife in this post. Educate yourself.

    https://www.amnesty.eu/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/PACE-submission-Islamophobia-1-June-2022.pdf



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭Potatoeman



    Islam is a religion, look back in this forum and you will see religion called poison but that was about the Catholic Church. For some reason an even more backwards religion that causes far more issues is given a pass, because reasons….

    Why stop there what about Russiaphobia, Trumpaphobia.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,029 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    So you didn't read the link because it didn't suit your argument.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,029 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Shatter doing more to get the OTB passed than anyone else. Coming out with the antisemitic trope will do him more harm than good. A loon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,605 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    I don't know T.L, but you don't really help your cause by saying this. IMO.

    Hit the switch to keep the lights on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,029 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    I don't know either but people claiming that the OTB would effect Tech and Pharma jobs in Ireland if passed seem to have been hit with a dose of Karma because of Trump's tarriffs and we all know which side he backs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,252 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Dave McCullagh absolutely skewering Alan Shatter over his disingenuous nonsense on the Six-One right now, and I'm fully here for it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,237 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    the only disingenuous nonsense are these idiot attention seeking politicians pretending to care about “illegal settlements” and trying to force through some nonsense bill that won’t make a blind bit of difference to anyone 1000s a miles away.

    Post edited by walshb on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,029 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Ah no. It will trigger the rest of Europe and seriously effect the Israeli economy not long after.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,605 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    No it won't, there's so much of history and connections involved in this. Ireland's OTB won't change a bit. I think.

    Hit the switch to keep the lights on.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,152 ✭✭✭mazdamiatamx5


    But given the prophecies of doom that some against the bill spout, that our economy will collapse if we do anything to offend the holy USA, surely that will help solve some of those issues, right?

    Ye can't have it both ways. Ye can't say on the one hand say that any anti-Israel moves will have dire economic consequences due to Israel's close connection to the US, and on the other that any such legislation is pointless virtue signalling.

    Which is it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭jprender


    surely it’s both ?


    pointless virtue signalling that will adversely affect the Irish Economy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,029 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Time will tell who is right. I just can't wait for it to go through because I feel that Israel deserves it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,029 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    How will it effect the Irish economy? No country should benefit from illegally stealing land and abusing the rightful owners. I think their friend Trump with his tariffs will do more damage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,152 ✭✭✭mazdamiatamx5


    Right. But the other poster was talking about the housing crisis, infrastructure crisis etc - in other words of 'too much' growth, as it were. An economic recession would obviously alleviate those issues, yes?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭jprender


    come on, there are Israelis in powerful positions all over the corporate world. You think Ireland passing this won’t have any affect on how Ireland is perceived, and subsequently treated?

    And here’s the thing, passing this OTB won’t help one Gazan, not one.

    Virtue signalling, with only a down side. Nothing is gained by it, not by Ireland, and not by Palestinians.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭jprender


    a recession won’t alleviate the housing crisis.

    It’ll just make houses more affordable for people that are already wealthy.

    A recession means job losses, no salary increases, banks not willing to lend etc etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,018 ✭✭✭✭Headshot


    It's takes all kind of stupidity to believe that the Occupied Territories Bill, could have any effect on Gaza. Just a ridiculous largely symbolic gesture that will do more hard than good for Ireland



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,029 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    So let the injustices go because the Israeli's hold important positions ?? What about their victims?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭jprender


    well what’s the OTB going to do for these victims ?

    Serious question.



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