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Senior ministers concerned about effects of Occupied Territories Bill.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,200 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Tibet has been internationally recognised as part of China since the early 18th century

    This seems strangely colonialist of you. Or is it different when the colonists aren't white?

    India was, after all, internationally recognised as part of the British Empire at that time too, so does that make it British now?

    China invaded Tibet in the 1950s and killed thousands of Tibetans, so any claim that it's inherently part of China seems a bit dubious, wouldn't you say?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,213 ✭✭✭political analyst


    I acknowledge your reference to those ICJ cases in which the US was involved.

    Dan O'Brien wrote that any action to sanction Israel in the manner proposed in the new Bill could trigger the use of the US's anti-boycott law.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Ireland left the UK and acheived international recognition as an independent sovereign state. Tibet never did. Therefore, when the Chinese reasserted control in Tibet in 1952, they were acting within internationally-recognised Chinese territory.

    International law no longer accepts imperialist conquest as a legitimate method of establishing a state, or extending the territory of a state. But that is a second-half-of-the-twentieth-century development. We live in a world in which many — perhaps most — of the states that exist now were established, or had their borders determined, by these means. International law doesn't retrospectively nullify the existence or territorial extent of those states (and, for obvious reasons, supporters of Israel wouldn't wish it to). But a consequence of that is that Chinese actions in Tibet, deplorable as they may be, are not regarded as an illegal occupation. Similarly, Chinese actions in Uighir territories may be deplorable, and may violate international law in various ways, but they are not in unlawful occupation of territory which is not their own.

    Tl;dr: You can't shoehorn Tibet into the Israel-in-Palestine model; it's a materially different problem.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Which goes back to the question that I raised earlier — should we be willing to pay any price at all in order to respond to injustice suffered by others? I suggested earlier that to answer "no" to this question wouldbe morally repugnant, and you didn't disagree. So, if we rule out that answer, then we have to find a way of working out:

    • how much, and in what way, any particular action we might take actually would jeopardise our own interests
    • how much benefit, support or solace that action might bring to the victims of the injustice or oppression
    • how these two things should be weighed against one another.

    Simply pointing out that a particular action carries a particular risk doesn't establish that we shouldn't take that action. You have to work right through this process before you can make a decision.

    After all, if the EU imposes any kind of sanction on Israel, that too could trigger the application of US anti-sanction laws. Does that mean that the EU also should do nothing?

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,213 ✭✭✭political analyst


    In most cases, colonies that became independent retained their borders, e.g. the Gold Coast became Ghana.

    Palestine was run by the British as a League of Nations mandate - a colony in all but name. In 1947, the UN published a partition plan that would've been a two-state solution, under which a UN administration would've ruled Jerusalem. The Jews accepted the plan but most Arabs did not. In 1948, the British Mandate ended. Therefore, given that Ghana had the same borders as the Gold Coast, why was Israel in 1948 not allowed to have the same borders as Palestine?

    In 1948, Israel didn't invade - Jordan and Egypt and other Arab nations did. In 1967, those nations attacked Israel again. So why is it that, from 1948 to 1967, Jordan was not labelled as an occupier of the West Bank & East Jerusalem but, today, Israel is? Surely, international law today can't be much different from the first five years after World War Two.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,764 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    International politics comes to the fore.

    The US would not impose a sanction on the EU, it is too important to them to do so.

    However, if Ireland acted alone, taken with the US desire to get US companies here home, together with a pre-emptive warning to the rest of the EU not to follow Ireland, could create the conditions where the US decide to make an example of us. That is a non-zero risk.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,200 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa



    Tl;dr: You can't shoehorn Tibet into the Israel-in-Palestine model; it's a materially different problem.


    I take it you make the same comment every time someone refers to themselves as a Paddystinian or otherwise conflates the Northern Ireland conflict with Israel Gaza, right?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,810 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Someone expressing an opinion/empathy is pretty different to discussing specific interpretations of legal matters.

    The material difference may not be particularly important to the 'Paddystinian's' feelings, but it's pretty important when it comes to application of laws.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Palestine was run by the British as a League of Nations mandate - a colony in all but name. In 1947, the UN published a partition plan that would've been a two-state solution, under which a UN administration would've ruled Jerusalem. The Jews accepted the plan but most Arabs did not. In 1948, the British Mandate ended. Therefore, given that Ghana had the same borders as the Gold Coast, why was Israel in 1948 not allowed to have the same borders as Palestine?

    Because then it wouldn't have been Israel — it would have been Palestine, an Arab state with a large Jewish minority (30-35%) in it. That wasn't, obviously, what the Zionist movement was seeking — hence, partition. This explains why Jews mostly accepted partition but Arabs mostly did not.

    (While most postcolonial states acheived independence with unchanged borders, Palestine isn't the only example of partition on independence. There's also India, Korea, Vietnam and, of course, Ireland. From this list we can see that partitioning on independence tends, on the whole, not to work out well.)

    In 1948, Israel didn't invade - Jordan and Egypt and other Arab nations did. In 1967, those nations attacked Israel again. So why is it that, from 1948 to 1967, Jordan was not labelled as an occupier of the West Bank & East Jerusalem but, today, Israel is? Surely, international law today can't be much different from the first five years after World War Two.

    (Nitpick: Arab nations didn't attack Israel in 1967; the 6-day war started with an Israeli surprise attack on Egypt.)

    Jordan was indeed an occupying power in the West Bank from 1948 to 1967, and was so regarded by the international community, including by other Arab states. The occupation was formalised by the 1949 armistice agreement that marked the end of hostilities in the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. (The armistice agreement also provided for Egypt to occupy and administer the Gaza strip, and that occupation also continued until 1967.)

    The occupation of the West Bank was not fundamentally different the occupations of parts or all of France, Italy, Germany, Austria, Japan, etc that went on during and after the Second World War, some of which were still ongoing in 1948. Occupation in the course of, or in the aftermath of, a war is accepted and regulated by international law — specifically, the Fourth Geneva Convention. It's not automatically illegal.

    In 1950 Jordan annexed the West Bank — declared it to be part of Jordan. That was illegal, and almost no states recognised or accepted it. The Arab League condemned it. Jordan lost the West Bank in the 1967 War, but it didn't renounce its formal claim to the territory until 1988.

    Israel has been in occupation of the West Bank since 1967. The occupation wasn't initially illegal, any more than Jordan's had been. It became illegal when it ceased to be temporary, and when Israel started governing the West Bank in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention — establishing settlements; colonising the area by importing and its own population; annexing territory (East Jerusalem);

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It's absurd to say that the US would never sanction the EU, given that the US has already sanctioned the EU on more than one occasion.

    Plus I think you concede the point yourself, when you say that sanctions on Ireland could be imposed as a pre-emptive warning to the EU not to follow suit. How could the US given a credible and effective warning about something that it would never do?

    So, there's a non-zero chance that collective action by the EU would attract a US response.

    But it's not a slam-dunk that the existence of a non-zero chance of an unspecified US response means that Ireland, or the EU, should take no action. You have to join the dots needed to complete that argument before anybody is going to find it persuasive. You need to qualify the chance as best you can. You also — and this is a bigger gap in the argument as it stands — need to look at what action the US would actually take, and how that would affect Ireland/the EU. The US actually has anti-boycott legislation, providing for the measures it will take in response to boycotts that the US doesn't support. What does that legislation say? How would those measures, if taken, affect Ireland? Or do you want to argue that they would ignore that legislation, and do something else entirely?

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭thatsdaft


    While our politicians tie themselves up in knots

    Egyptian Arabs are doing their bit to help their fellow Arabs in Gaza



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,463 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Harris said today they have sent 80 million to the Palestinians since October 2023

    Thats an obscene amount of our money to be sending over there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,810 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    With €48bn tax collected in the first half of the year, it really isn't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,213 ✭✭✭political analyst


    I accept your points about the partition of Palestine and the Jordanian and Israeli occupations of the West Bank. As for the start of the Six-Day War, Israel admitted it had struck first but described its attack as a pre-emptive move in response to an anticipated Egyptian invasion. Just before the war, the Soviets falsely claimed to Nasser that Israel was massing on the Syrian border.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,309 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    And I'd say plenty of Irish people are perfectly fine with doing so including myself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,463 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,309 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    You are, I don't believe I ever said you aren't. 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,974 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Try and get support for your autistic child and then it really is.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,810 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    As emotive a topic as that is, I'm pretty sure if the €80m was still in the coffers, you'd be experiencing the exact same problems.

    You're complaining you can't afford the groceries because someone dropped a five cent coin while there's a lad standing in front of you burning stacks of €500 notes.

    In terms of the country budget, €80m over two years is barely a rounding error.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,200 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Nobody's talking about the whole country's budget for everything though.

    Minister Harris announced to great fanfare that he was allocating a whole €2million for autism in the 2020 budget. I'm not sure whether that was a one-off or ongoing - but even if it's ongoing and has increased every year since then, that €80 million would still secure it for DECADES.

    https://www.gov.ie/en/department-of-health/press-releases/minister-harris-announces-2-million-funding-for-autism-plan/

    Because €80 million is a good chunk of the entire disability budget of €3 billion.

    So before you sneer about €80 million being barely a rounding error, maybe check out the actual numbers first?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,810 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    That was additional funding.

    Like I said, you're giving out about the lad dropping a few cent while there's someone standing in front of you burning €500 notes. The whole country's budget is the only thing that matters.

    It's grand though, sure we could nearly put a bike shed in each county of the official state......or if we save up at the current rates, it'd cover us for one hospital every thirty years or so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,802 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    At least the bike sheds might provide some use to us, rather just chucking it away.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,200 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    It's exactly the attitude of "Ah sure €80 million is hardly worth picking up off the floor" that enables ministers to flush more millions down the drain on various vanity projects.

    You told the poster talking about there being a shortage of funds for autism that €80 million was a pathetic amount of money. Turns out it would fund FORTY years of the autism plan.

    You should at least have the grace to admit that the poster had a valid point. And if you think that money is better spent being thrown away on grandstanding about how bad Israel is, just say so. I'm sure it will really improve people's lives in Palestine. Like the boycott of Soda stream did.

    Oh wait, no. The Arabs all lost their jobs thanks to that boycott.

    Good result all round then? Ireland loses out, the Palestinians lose out, but we all have a warm fuzzy glow from all the Student Union type virtue signalling

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,810 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Forty years of the ADDITIONAL funding, certainly. By no means is it even close to forty years of the total funding spent on autism, nor is there any logical basis to assume that if we hadn't done this that it would've been spent on that either.

    I was clear that this is potentially an emotive topic so I really don't want to get down in the weeds about funding for autism as if I'm suggesting it is not a worthwhile expenditure, I'm saying exactly what I've said.....the total expenditure on Palestine over two years that was raised is around one sixth of a percent of our most recent six months of tax collected. It's absolutely a rounding error in real terms despite the hand wringing. You're not even trying to argue that there is a SHORTAGE of funds for autism, you're arguing that it is poorly allocated and I'm saying that if you want to look at poor allocation, there are much bigger fish to fry.

    I suggest you Google, 'Relative Privation'. Even if we don't spend as much as we should on Autism, it doesn't make approximately 0.04% of the budget over over two years a significant expenditure. The 0.04% is obviously inaccurate as the previous 18 months of tax take won't be three times the current six month take, but you get the point I'm sure.

    Do you have the same opinion of all foreign aid expenditure or is there something specific about this one that hurts you so?

    Whatever way you want to skin it, €80m over two years remains barely a rounding error in terms of a country's budget.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,200 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    TBH I thought we were still talking about the cost of the OTB to the Irish economy, rather than a donation, so no that's a bit different. In that case I agree that the sum is not huge. But is it going to help ordinary Palestinians, or will Hamas get a chunk of it? Or all of it?

    More generally, I'm coming to the conclusion that foreign aid is often so badly attributed that it can do more harm than good, not just because it gets creamed off by terrorists or gangs, but also from things like the harm it does to the local economy, where the locals can often no longer sell their produce because the aid coming in is better and cheapoer - or free. Then when it stops, as the caravan moves on to the next disaster, the local economy has been hollowed out and can no longer provide for local needs.

    Foreign aid is hurting, not helping Sub-Saharan Africa

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,810 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    I was responding initially to a post that stated

    Harris said today they have sent 80 million to the Palestinians since October 2023

    Thats an obscene amount of our money to be sending over there.

    My particular objection was to the, 'that's an obscene amount' part.

    Broadly speaking with regards to foreign aid, I think you have a reasonable fundamental argument. I'm not convinced the specific and valid arguments for sub-Saharan Africa necessarily make for a general case though, but that's probably getting off-topic enough to be a different thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,200 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    There are specificities to different regions but the issues of corruption and harm done to local economies manifest themselves in many places. I’ve seen it described as aid often being like a massive downpour after a drought: water is desperately needed and yet the storm ends up causing even more harm because there is not the infrastructure to absorb it safely. That’s what happens when large amounts of aid arrive in a poor country, not just sub Saharan Africa.

    And more and more one of the biggest issues is the aid or other equipment being taken by terrorist groups. That’s a particular problem in Gaza, and has been for years. There are videos of UNRWA vehicles being used in the Oct 7th attacks and afterwards by Hamas. Not by UNRWA employees AFAIK - that was a separate allegation. This was about theft of the vehicles.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,309 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    There's a far more established issue which is Israel preventing aid from reaching Palestinians. Human rights organizations have been raising it throughout the conflict.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,200 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa



    Like this guy? He looks starving alright:


    Considering that the problem of Hamas stealing aid has been known about for YEARS, your interpretation of the word “established” seems to be “but I believe it”

    This is since Israel’s invasion of Gaza in 2023:
    Abbas confirms Hamas ‘gangs’ stealing Gaza aid

    That’s Mahmoud Abbas of the West Bank Palestinian Authority.

    But it’s been a recurring issue over the years. From 2009:

    From 2016 (different case obviously)

    And so on.

    It’s a well known fact.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



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