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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 341 ✭✭2Greyfoxes


    So it wasn't 'Dude looks like a Lady'... but rather 'Dude is a guy pretending to be a Lady'.

    The longer this madness goes on the more I am not surprised any more.

    Post edited by 2Greyfoxes on

    Clever word play may win debates, but it doesn't make it true.

    Understanding and explaining things, is not the same as justifying them, if in doubt… please re-read this statement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,831 ✭✭✭plodder


    The WPATH thread seems to be closed. So, posting this here. I considered quoting some of the most shocking bits, but thought better of it. It's written by an American ob/gyn who has performed many gender affirming hysterectomies and is now having second thoughts. Some interesting insights, like how easy the procedure is for the surgeon - removing an atrophied (from Testosterone) but otherwise healthy uterus. Also how the patient cohort has changed and more are presenting as merely non-binary, rather than trans-masculine. In other words, they look and behave still as young women. Also, when she started to raise questions among other surgeons, her concerns were immediately shot down as "transphobic".

    It’s Time for Liberal Physicians to Rethink American Gender Medicine

    The Ethics of the Gender Affirming Hysterectomy

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    Thanks Plodder, it's all things I've heard before, but nonetheless it's so shocking to see it laid out so comprehensively. Also incredibly interesting how many hoops women/girls with endometriosis, fibroids etc. have to jump through (which I agree with) to obtain a hysterectomy but people declaring geder dysphoria are escalated so rapidly to surgical interventions.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    Deeply worrying that the damage to young people is being swept aside. As objective and logical thinkers, most of us have always found this questionable and have continued to raise this as a concern despite the hateful (stupid & ignorant) rhetoric thrown at us. About time the professionals involved take stock and become more transparent regarding the ongoing damage to young people.


    It really is nightmarish scary stuff:

    “ ..patients who came to me had more and more poorly controlled mental health comorbidities”

    “no specific requirements for the psychological evaluation of young adolescents before starting them on the medical gender transition pathway”

    The mental and emotional well being of children and young people is paramount. Above all else it needs to addressed and the fact that the Trans community have swept this aside as a non issue only to focus their attention on shouting indiscriminately about transphobic bigots, must surely now come to an end.

    Navigating the way to trans surgery should be managed with all the mental health safety checks in place.. surely everyone agrees how very important it is to find the correct and emotionally-safe pathway for each individual. The unravelling of this debacle will exposed many for being brutal uncaring ideologically driven fanatics. Mental care for the individual on all levels comes first no matter who you are.. except of course young people and children, they are even more important and require tons of support and care.

    ”I hate who steals my solitude without, in exchange, offering true company.” - F. Nietzsche



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    That article is truly horrifying.

    For instance, related to what @OscarMIlde mentions, it's incomprehensible that there are no restrictions such as what other methods have been tried to resolve the patient's problems before doing a hysterectomy. It's the same approach as for children - any attempt to do anything other than whatever is demanded by the patient is somehow an offence, even when it's the norm before giving the exact same treatment for far more objectively diagnosable illnesses.

    Unlike hysterectomies for abnormal bleeding or pelvic pain, there was no need to document prior attempts at treatment, failures, and impact on the patient’s life for the insurance companies to authorize these hysterectomies. “Gender dysphoria” always got approved (with the requisite two letters, one from a mental health professional and one from a PCP).

    What is going on?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    It reminds me a little bit of the butchering of women in the medical dark days. Hysterical? Signed paper by a couple of males? Result: locked up or surgery or both.

    Post edited by Mr.Wemmick on

    ”I hate who steals my solitude without, in exchange, offering true company.” - F. Nietzsche



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    So to nobody's surprise*, Imane is a no-show at Eindhoven.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/olympic-champ-imane-khelif-skips-eindhoven-event-after-122549920

    * And I do mean nobody: it was amusing to see how Imane's most ardent supporters all immediately assumed that WB introducing a sex test meant that Khelif was "banned" from the competition. Completely untrue: all the Algerians had to do was produce a cheek swab showing that Khelif was female. It takes about as long as a covid test, and is much less unpleasant to undergo.

    Which shows they all knew the truth really.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,966 ✭✭✭Nermal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,230 ✭✭✭Enduro


    That won't happen. She competed within the rules in place at the time of the competition. The rules were the issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Won't matter either way. This is the thing with knock-out competitions: there's just no way of "fixing" the injustice simply by giving the medal to the runner-up, because who knows which of the previous boxers put out of the running by Khelif in a previous might have gone on to beat Yang Liu in the finals - or even what boxer would have taken Khelif's place had Khelif not qualified in the first place.

    Steve Bunce and other so-called sports experts are all so concerned about Khelif's well being, yet they're not nearly so concerned about a spectator sport in which women get beaten up by a man.

    .



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,966 ✭✭✭Nermal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,230 ✭✭✭Enduro


    The real world doesn't work like that. Certainly not when it comes to sports rules at Olympic level.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    if you wanted to make a decision on this based purely on factual stuff….ask your nearest politican….

    "Is rules in Ireland now based on what a small minority decide is the norm or are we still doing thing democratically in this country whereby the majority decides issues"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    So who do you think won the gold medal? And the silver? For all we know it could have been Angela Carini, knocked out in the first round by Khelif.

    We could take away Khelif's gold, but the injustice can never be repaired.

    It's the IOC's fault - they chose to allow men to fight. Remember that trans women (ie not Khelif) could also have qualified to fight, based on having their birth certs changed, which is legal in several US states. So the real problem wasn't that there was any real confusion over Khelif's sex, it was that the IOC decreed that it was quite ok for women to be punched by men as long as the men had a female passport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,966 ✭✭✭Nermal


    I agree that the injustice cannot be fully remedied - but we should still do our best.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,245 ✭✭✭George White


    Anyone increasingly alienated by the rudeness of gender-critical people? And how things are going increasingly right-wing?
    I often get teased because I believe there should be a leftist gender critical movement that isn't that rude, that actually adheres to the call yourself whatever you want, wear whatever you please' dichotomy, but believes in basic biology.

    Seeing how many gender-criticals are going further into the right-wing (e.g. Labour), to me, it feels like people don't want more people in the gender-critical movement.

    Like someone like Graham Linehan was a liberal, but as he got further into the gender-critical movement, he got further right wing, and now he's an Aontu supporter. He's gone from being one of the big voices of the pro-choice movement to Aontu. That makes me wonder why leftist GCs (if they even exist) haven't banded together to focus on something that doesn't drive people further down the rabbit hole. Something that is genuinely focused on protecting vulnerable single sex women, rather than using it as an excuse for bullying.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,009 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    His case is a sad affair, and while I wouldn't use the words "stripped of his title" I would hope some arrangement could be made whereby the medal is voluntarily handed back with the acceptance that he should never have been in the women's category in the 1st place.

    He was used as a disposable pawn by those with an agenda to bend the rules of fair competition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,230 ✭✭✭Enduro


    This looks like a huge move in the right direction at the very highest levels of sport :

    Hopefully once this is put in place there will be a cascading effect downwards to all levels of Olympic sports, and hopefully sideways to remaining non-Olympic sports.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,686 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    During the week the Swiss women's national soccer team were beaten 7-1 by a team of under 15 boys in a friendly ahead of the women's world cup. The u15s were representing the Swiss club team Luzern so not even a team of prodigious talents like Real Madrid or Barcelona youths.

    I guess this team of mostly professional adult females just need to train harder because there are no differences between male and female athletes*

    *according to some



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,352 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Bit of context wouldn’t have gone amiss -

    Midfielder Leila Wandeler said: “The result didn’t matter. For us, it was about testing our game principles.”

    The team did not appear to take the contest very seriously, using 28 players in the 90 minute match.

    https://www.news.com.au/sport/football/womens-national-team-humiliated-71-by-u15-boys-team/news-story/93e87b0dcac51e1d8146eddbb716f3f1?amp


    It’s the likes of Piers Morgan and Donald Trump need to try harder instead of wetting their knickers and trying to make something out of nothing, like the above effort from Morgan, and this effort from Trump when Juventus visited the White House -

    At one point Trump, who in February signed an executive order banning transgender participants from women’s sports, turned around to ask the Juventus players and staff about their views on the subject.

    “Could a woman make your team, fellas,” Trump asked the players, who smiled nervously but did not offer a response.

    When Trump asked the question again, Juventus’s general manager, Damien Comolli, attempted to deflect the query. “We have a very good women’s team,” he said of Juventus Women, who are the reigning Serie A champions.

    “But they should be playing with women,” said Trump as Comolli chose not to answer. “He’s being very diplomatic,” said Trump.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/jun/18/donald-trump-juventus-transgender-players-club-world-cup


    Ne’er a peep out of either of them when this happens, cos it doesn’t fit their narrative -

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2019/jun/13/usa-celebrated-all-13-goals-thailand-france-2019-world-cup



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,686 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    What the hell are you gibbering about? The USA womens team hockeyed the Thai women's team. It's women vs women. Big effin deal.

    The Swiss women's team, all 28 senior players, were hockeyed by a team of male kids.

    A senior women's team beating a senior women's team has absolutely nothing to do with a team of male kids beating a senior women's team.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭Stormyteacup


    Change needs to be enacted from policy, ethics committees, government guidelines and professional healthcare regulations.

    Honestly, I can’t blame anyone who grew up questioning their gender under the affirmation model. They were affirmed over and over, agreed with, encouraged to transition etc. from authority figures in their lives, activist groups etc., with no exploration of possible alternatives to their questioning. Sure we’d all feel we’d every right to compete in sports and that everyone else was a transphobe and bully if they disagreed. The affirmation model is a tragic disservice to our youth.

    Imagine every single important care-giver in your small world as a child, or limited world as an adolescent, absolutely affirming you can be the gender you identify with and have and deserve the exact same rights as that gender. That’s the model..

    Change starts with gently introducing early acceptance of their limitations in certain areas should they wish to pursue a transition. We all have to accept those limitations in life, too short, IQ not high enough to achieve dream of rocket scientist, unable to give birth on account of biology, going bald or growing hair in unusual places - for any gender? It’s hard to accept the things we can’t achieve or change, goals or physical attributes, but that’s life..

    Does it feel othering to the person involved? Course it does but there are many many factors in life that set us apart and make us feel less than, so we rely on resilience and resourcefulness to find our place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Yes. It's still deeply puzzling to me that so many people dived right into the notion that sex was somehow imaginary, and insisted that there were no possible downsides for anyone over letting men decree that they were lesbians "really". I remember when that used to be a male fantasy - and suddenly women were expected to take it seriously, and even face losing their jobs if they objected!

    As for sport, the idea that men can compete fairly against women, if only the women tried a bit more is missing the point so hard that it's laughable really - or it would be if people weren't still trying to sneak it in (LGFA, I'm looking at you: https://genspect.org/gaels-for-fair-play-petition/%29 )

    And I agree with you that it's a problem that we've created for children. It's unforgivable to have abandoned basic child psychology and even safeguarding for ideological reasons - but that's what's happened.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,352 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Exactly, that’s why, like I said - you won’t hear a peep out of Morgan and Trump, because it doesn’t fit their narrative.

    Trying to make something out of a training session though, that fits their narrative, it might mean something if it were an actual competition, but it’s not, and made no difference to competition, and is actually common for professional women’s teams to practice against the men’s youth teams. A youth team beating the national women’s team in a friendly training sessIon means nothing, yet here we are with some people trying to make out that it supports their argument against women competing with men in sports competitions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,352 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    We all have to accept those limitations in life, too short, IQ not high enough to achieve dream of rocket scientist, unable to give birth on account of biology, going bald or growing hair in unusual places - for any gender? It’s hard to accept the things we can’t achieve or change, goals or physical attributes, but that’s life..

    Does it feel othering to the person involved? Course it does but there are many many factors in life that set us apart and make us feel less than, so we rely on resilience and resourcefulness to find our place.


    Speak for yourself. Having someone or many people in their lives who support them is how anyone achieves anything. They rely on resilience and resourcefulness too to make changes in their lives which make their lives better, it’s not any different to anyone else who does the same. Nobody has to simply accept anything, and they use resilience and resourcefulness to make changes in their lives, like Ben Barres or Chris Mosier who didn’t simply accept the idea that they should just accept being discriminated against, and made changes in their lives which makes other people see that they too can do the same with support from other people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Having someone or many people in their lives who support them is how anyone achieves anything.

    That's obviously true, but it doesn't actually remove all of the possible limitations that, as @Stormyteacup pointed out, mean that that no matter how hard they try, some people are just never going to be able to achieve certain things.

    Do you really think that someone with an IQ of 40 - not unusual in someone with Down syndrome - can ever become a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist, if only they tried a bit harder??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,686 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    If you want to bury your head in the sand and argue that a team of male youths smashing a team of adult females is in no way indicative of the physical differences between males and females then that's up to you hoss, but I won't play that game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    All anyone needs to do is compare the relative records for the male and female categories of just about any sport you care to mention.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,352 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    If someone with the IQ of a canteloupe can become President of the United States, I’d say anything was possible 😂

    But genuinely, to answer your question, I don’t know, but it wouldn’t be because they had low IQ, it’d be because they’re not expected to become a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist, it’s not because they can’t. In the same manner, since this is the sports thread, and since that misrepresentation is persistently being brought up - it’s not because anyone is either man, woman or child that they need to try harder if they want to win, it’s because they lost, that they need to try harder. If they don’t try at all, or if they’re being denied the opportunity to try because of other people’s beliefs which they need to maintain, then they are that much less likely to be able to achieve whatever they want to accomplish. It’s why baldies can get hair transplants now to give them an approximation of a full head of natural hair, where previously they would have had to be satisfied with an ill-fitting toupee 😒



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    but it wouldn’t be because they had low IQ, it’d be because they’re not expected to become a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist, it’s not because they can’t.

    So you don't think that problems of memorisation would be the reason why someone with an IQ of 40 would struggle to learn, for instance, the detailed anatomy of the human body (which is required just to get through the first year of medicine), but simply that people don't believe they would be able to memorise that amount of anatomy?

    I mention problems of memorisation because my friend has identical twin daughters, one of whom suffered slight brain damage from a lack of oxygen at birth. Both are bright, intelligent girls, but the difference in their academic achievements is not due to the parents' lack of faith. She simply couldn't memorise the surprisingly large number of things that a normal education requires of children. I've seen her spending hours trying to learn numbers in French (I speak good French, so I offered to help with that), and a month later it was nearly all gone. Meanwhile her identical twin had no problem.

    If you really think that child could have done medicine if only more people had believed in her a bit better, to be blunt, you are delusional.

    And while I understand your point about not stopping someone from trying to do something, I would also say that it would have been unfair on her not to let her know that the effort it would take from her to study medicine would be superhuman compared to the effort that her peers would be putting in. And that it would be the same for the decades of her working life, where she would have to remember large parts of those studies every time a new patient walked in the door.



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