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Senior ministers concerned about effects of Occupied Territories Bill.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,873 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    You must also have found it strange how people were more upset with what Russia was doing in Ukraine yet they were mostly silent about the far greater numbers being killed in Sudan. Of course you didn't put forward this argument because you are not a supporter of Russia. You only do so here to try and defend Israel. Even if you were right about a double standard it doesn't absolve Israel of blame for commiting war crimes in Gaza.

    We should not be supporting or facilitating war crimes by Israel. The Hamas figures have been accepted by many organisations as credible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,468 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Of course differences work both ways, but that simply reinforces the point I'm making. Pointing out that people are responding differently to to this case than to other, different cases, is not a particularly forceful criticism of how they are responding to this case, and the more, and more various, the differences between the two cases that there are, the more true this is.

    People who advance this argument are tacitly admitting that they don't have a better one to advance.

    You can certainly argue that we should be supporting Israel in finding the hostages and ending Hamas rule in Gaza. But you could probably argue it a lot more effectively if you could bring yourself to accept that there are both rational and moral arguments against that position with which you need to engage. Instead, you to convince yourself that all disagreement with your position is the result of double standards, a desire for oil and a hope of distracting people's attention from housing problems.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    China is occupying Tibet, has concentration camps for Muslims and is claiming ownership of Taiwan. Are we going to sanction them too? It might prove pretty expensive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Not at all, it is a perfectly valid argument to make that Ireland should not impose sanctions unilaterally, that it should act in concert with the international community generally, the EU as a member, or in a group of like-minded countries. We don't have either of those three behind us, and it is a perfectly valid argument to make that we would be more effective in working on putting together such a coalition, rather that isolating ourselves uniquely.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,873 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Do you have a problem with the sanctions on Russia too?

    Should we just turn a blind eye to everything from now on then or should we selectively express condemnation based on whether you support the regimes in question.

    Post edited by nacho libre on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Sure, but that isn't the argument that Red Silurian was making. Given his stated position that "we should be supporting Israel in finding the hostages and ending Hamas rule in Gaza", presumably that isn't an argument that he would make.

    I think there is a lot of merit in the point you make. But I also think that most of the people who call for Ireland to take some action would be as happy, or perhaps even happier, to see Ireland involved in multilateral action as they would to see it acting unilaterally. The two are not fundamentally inconsistent, after all. I don't think any of them have criticised Ireland for its action in recognising the State of Palestine, which was clearly co-ordinated with Spain and Norway.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Agreed, but there is a tendency to lump in those who are against this Bill with those who are pro-Israel. They are not the same thing.

    There are those who are against the Bill on the basis that it is unilateral action.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I can see why people might have a preference for multilateral action — it has a better prospect of being effective. But unilateral action isn't inconsistent with multilateral action; you can aim to pursue both, as the opportunity arises. Unilateral action can be a precursor to multilateral action. It can act as a signal of willingness to take further action, which may be multilateral. Or, it can be the best available option if there isn't a multilateral action currently on foot that you can participate in.

    Tl;dr; the position you describe isn't irrational, but it's not very persuasive. A preference for multilateral action doesn't look like a sound reason for opposing unilateral action — the perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good, and all that.

    Hypothetical: suppose your efforts to build a consensus behind EU action on some issue that needs a qualified majority have not so far been successful, and there is no immediate prospect that they will. Does this mean you should do nothing about that issue? Why?

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    It is more than that. We haven't taken unilateral action in the past, certainly not in recent decades.

    Arguably, in terms of foreign relations, it is as big a step as removing the Triple Lock, yet the principle of it has not seen any debate at all. After all, the argument in your last paragraph applies equally to the Triple Lock, except the Triple Lock is significantly more restrictive. My position would be that if we are to apply such sanctions we should at least do so with like-minded countries.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It would certainly be better to do so with like-minded countries. But, like I say, I don't think this is an irrevocable one-thing-or-the-other choice. Countries that take action contribute to an international climate in which taking action is seen as feasible and/or desirable; that makes it easier to organise collective action; the countries that moved first may then fold their efforts into the collective action.

    Look at the UK response to the invastion of Ukraine. Somewhat surprisingly, for a country that was very badly governed at the time and whose foreign policy was in a state of, frankly, bewilderment, they moved very fast to express support for Ukraine, to provide concrete material support (both military and humanitarian) and to provide a refugee reception scheme. In many respects they were ahead of the EU. It was pretty impressive, really.

    They weren't the only country to act unilaterally; some others did too. Did this unilateral action prevent or impede multilateral or collective action? Should the UK and other countries have avoided taking action on the grounds that, if they were to act, they should at least do so with like-minded countries?

    Obviously, the two situations are not on all fours, but the basic issue remains the same. I'm very resistant to a framing in which unilateral action and multilateral action are presented as opposed to one another, or inconsistent with one another; that doesn't make sense to me.

    On edit: I don't think this is as big as removing the triple lock. And it's absurd to say there has been no debate; this is being done by legislation which will have to go through both houses of the Oireachtas and be debated and voted on multiple times. As for wider public debate — well, what are you and I doing right now?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    We would need to be in agreement with the US on any sanctions. If we go ahead with them the US could sanction us in turn. We have enough issues with Russia without being drawn into that conflict too. If we sanction Israel are we going to sanction China too?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    This is exactly why I keep pointing out that we should be acting multilaterally rather than unilaterally.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,873 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    You will recall the phone call Paschal is reported to have had -which he denied having - in relation to watering down the bill and putting it on the long finger. This was all done to appease the US. So there is unlikely to be direct sanctions in the event the bill is eventually passed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Wait, you're agreeing with Potatoeman — whose position on this, by his own admission, is driven by his indifference to the suffering of the innnocent — that Donald Trump should be handed a veto over Irish foreign policy positions?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,191 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Bit tough on the hundreds of thousands of disappeared in Syria though. You're effectively saying their lives don't really matter because Assad made no claim to be a democrat. Seems rather a strange way of valuing human lives to me.

    Of course there's a rather more cynical, but TBH more plausible explanation for the very selective fury of a certain cohort of westerners.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,873 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Well done Volchista on exposing a double standard. Seeing as you are not like that yourself, you no doubt would welcome the day both Bashar and Bibi are held to account for commiting war crimes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,191 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Absolutely. Why would you think I was a fan of Netanyahu. I think he's a criminal and should have been in prison long before Oct 7th. I'm also sure that Hamas preferred someone like him to a peacemaker - that's why they attacked the kibbutzim and murdered the Israeli left.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is complete twisting of my words. Disappointed by your response.

    All I am saying is that Ireland should not act unilaterally. It is not in the best interests of this country to do so.

    We are an open trading country that relies on multilateralism to succeed. Moving away from that and taking a singular position such as on the OTB is a big mistake.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,204 ✭✭✭political analyst


    If the current Israeli defence minister and his predecessor were of the same mindset as Ben Gvir and Smotrich then the IDF would still adhere to the Nuremberg principles, i.e. not obeying unlawful orders.

    If Netanyahu wanted to starve the civilians of Gaza then the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation would not have been founded.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    PA, you're being totally one-eyed about this. In early March Netanyahu announced a total ban on all imports to Gaza in an attempt to compel Hamas to return the remaning hostages. Securing the return of the hostages is one of Israel's announced aism in relation to the military invention in Gaza. So what we have here is Israel publicly saying that it is starving the civilian population of Gaza in order to secure its war aims. That is the war crime of starvation, classic definition, straight up, no question.

    Ten weeks later Netenyahu establishes the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. So at the very least we can say that Israel was committing war crimes for those 10 weekds. But, when the Foundation was established, we have Smotrich saying publicly that Israel will do the bar minimum to avoid being accused of war crimes. That doesn't sound like a good faith change of heart.

    To be cynical for a moment, part of Isael's problem here is that it is governed by Trumpy idiots who cannot resist saying the quiet part out loud. They boast about Israel's criminal intent. That makes it very difficult for you to defend Israel with any credility or plausibility.

    To be less cynical, Netenyahu is one of the worst things ever to happen to Israel, and Israel's true friends would not be supporting him or making excuses for him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Nothing I have said could possibly be construed as a claim that the lives of Assad's victims don't really matter because Assade made no claim to be a democrat. If you have to resort to gross distortions like this in an attempt to refute criticisms of Netenyahu you are clearly in a difficult position, and I think you know it.

    I'v already pointed out that the Assad regime was subjec to extensive sanctions and to exetnal military intervention; the Netenyahy regime has not been treated in the same way. That might explain why people are more vocal in calling for action against Israel; it's the complete inaction or even active support that they object to.There's a more plausible explanation, but perhaps it's not cynical enough for you?

    Netenyahu's supporters are very fond of claiming that there is a double standard at work here. Perhaps there is, but not where they think. Should the Netenyahu regime face the kind of sanctions that other regimes often face if they commit war crimes outside their own territory? If not, why not?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,204 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Where in international law does it say that blockading the enemy's territory in wartime is a crime? Hamas is the government of Gaza and so has a duty of care to Gaza civilians - just like Hirohito had a duty of care to the Japanese public. Was the US committing a crime by blockading Imperial Japan?

    Perhaps those who are calling for action against Israel don't understand the history of the two world wars.

    I'm not sure that your analysis is objective.

    There's no equivalence between the Israeli government, regardless of who the Israeli PM has been at any given time, and the Assad regime.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Where in international law does it say that blockading the enemy's territory in wartime is a crime? 

    The starvation of the civil population as a means to acheive war aims is absolutely a war crime — Geneva Convention Protocol I Article 54. Also Rome Statute Article 8(2)(b)(xxv). And this is a long-established principal of customary international law; it wasn't novel rule when it was included in the Geneva Convention or the Rome Statute.

    Moreover, Israel clearly accepts that starvation is a war crime. As already pointed out, part of their stated rationale for establishing the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation is the hope that it will help to avoid accusations of war crimes. Which other war crime do you think they're afraid of being accused of, that they hope the establishment of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation would provide a colourable defence for?

    Seriously, you're in danger of adopting positions here that not even the Netenyahu junta has the effrontery to adopt. Starvation is a war crime. Pretending that it isn't won't be an effective way of providing support for Netenyahu; it just gives the impression that you can't find any credible arguments in his support.

    Hamas is the government of Gaza and so has a duty of care to Gaza civilians - just like Hirohito had a duty of care to the Japanese public.

    I think you are either under the impression that I support or excuse Hamas, or the impression that I think that, if Hamas's actions are unjustified, Israel's actions must be justified. Whichever it is, you are completely mistaken.

    Was the US committing a crime by blockading Imperial Japan?

    If their intent was to starve the civilian population of Japan, yes, they were.

    Perhaps those who are calling for action against Israel don't understand the history of the two world wars.

    Or — here's a radical thought — perhaps they do.

    I'm not sure that your analysis is objective.

    Tell me more! What have I said that is objectively incorrect?

    (And, maybe, just maybe, consider the possibility that the person who is reluctant to accept that starvation is a war crime, and who thinks that, if the US did it it can't be a war crime, is the one whose analysis isn't entirely objective.)

    There's no equivalence between the Israeli government, regardless of who the Israeli PM has been at any given time, and the Assad regime.

    Ah, but I'm not the one who proposed such an equivalence. It's Netenyahu fanboys who suggested that people calling for action against Israel who hadn't previously called for action against Syria were guilty of double standards. The unstated but necessary premise in that argument is that the cases of Israel and Syria are equivalent.

    So here we seem to have a point that you and I agree on — that particular argument is nonsense, since the two cases are not equivalent.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,204 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Israel said it had let enough aid be brought into Gaza during the pause in hostilities earlier this year for people to survived for quite some time after the pause ended. Even during the current phase of the war, some convoys have been allowed to enter Gaza.

    "Netanyahu junta" my foot! The Israeli people will have their say in October of next year at the latest.

    On a matter more closely related to the OTB, Israel offered to let the Palestinians have their own state before - especially when Olmert was Israeli PM, as is shown by the following article from last February. An Israeli diplomat said that the Palestinians "never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity".

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g0dv7rxxvo

    Post edited by political analyst on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Did you actually read the article, PA? Olmert had already handed in his resignation as PM when he made this offer, and both sides knew that the plan would be immediately repudiated by the Israeli government that would follow. Olmert wanted the Palestinians to accept the plan without examination, presumably because examination would show that it wasn't a credible plan.

    This wasn't a good faith, deliverable offer of a Palestinian state.

    Even it were, so what? What would it's relevance to the present discussion be? You don't get to commit war crimes against a people with impunity on the grounds that they have been badly governed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,204 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Olmert told the author of that article that it would've been "very smart" for Abbas to sign the deal so that, if a future Israeli PM tried to cancel it, Abbas could've told the world that the failure was Israel's fault.

    Blockade doesn't necessarily mean starvation. Any starvation in Gaza has been caused by the hoarding of food by the Gazan government (namely Hamas). Given Oct 7th, it wouldn't be a big leap for Hamas to prevent civilians in its territory from getting adequate nutrition.

    Allegations against Israel are based on reports from unreliable witnesses in Gaza - local 'journalists', many of whom were terrorists themselves, and 'Gaza civil defence' and the 'Gaza health ministry'. To believe them is like believing the Provos if they had claimed in 1972 that the British Army had killed 200 people in 'Free Derry'.

    There seems to be an inability to distinguish between the deliberate killing of civilians and the incidental wartime killing of civilians on the part of some observers.

    This week, the Belgian foreign minister spearheaded a joint letter - co-signed by Tánaiste Simon Harris, as well as the foreign ministers of Finland, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Slovenia, Spain, and Sweden - calling on Ms Kallas to ensure that the EU is compliant with last summer’s ICJ advisory opinion that Israel’s occupation was illegal, and that countries were obliged to ensure they did not support the occupation through trade. According to Tony Connelly, the Belgian initiative chimes with the Irish government’s view that the ICJ ruling is binding on EU member states and that a ban on products from illegal settlements is effectively a legal obligation (ie, the legal impetus for the OTB).

    https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2025/0621/1519609-connelly-analysis-eu/

    If the ICJ's ruling on the West Bank settlements was binding then it would not be advisory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Olmert told the author of that article that it would've been "very smart" for Abbas to sign the deal so that, if a future Israeli PM tried to cancel it, Abbas could've told the world that the failure was Israel's fault.

    Yes, Olmert said that. (He didn't say it to the author. If you read the article you'll see that the author is telling us what he saw on a television programme.) The article also quotes what Husseini, one of the Palestinian negotiators said, about the deal. You don't mention this. You seem to think that, if Olmert said it, his views must be take an authoritative, unarguable and objectively correct while, if Husseini said it, we needn't even notice what he said. But I'm the one you think doesn't have an objective take? Right.

    Blockade doesn't necessarily mean starvation. Any starvation in Gaza has been caused by the hoarding of food by the Gazan government (namely Hamas). Given Oct 7th, it wouldn't be a big leap for Hamas to prevent civilians in its territory from getting adequate nutrition.

    A total blockade of Gaza, which has near zero domestic food production, certainly does mean starvation. In the context of a total blockade, a claim that that any starvation has been caused by the hoarding of food by Hamas is one that even a Netenyahu apologist should be embarrassed to make. Do you think I'm an idiot?

    There seems to be an inability to distinguish between the deliberate killing of civilians and the incidental wartime killing of civilians on the part of some observers.

    Now there's a double-edged comment, if ever I saw one!

    If the ICJ's ruling on the West Bank settlements was binding then it would not be advisory.

    An advisory opinion is so-called because it doesn't include any order for its own implementation. In that sense it's not binding; it doesn't order any particular person to take any specific steps.

    But that doesn't mean that it has no legal effect. it is authoritative. It declares what the law is and what outcomes the law has when applied to particular facts, and all the members of the UN are bound to accept that. So it's beyond question that Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories is unlawful, as are its creation of settlements there, and its exploitation of the area's natural resources.

    In the domestic context, it would be similar to an Irish Supreme Court judgement ruling that a particular Act is unconstitutional. The court typically doesn't order the Oireachtas to repeal the Act, and it doesn't order Ministers or civil servants not to implement it; it just declares that it's invalid because it's repugnant to the Constitution, and it leave it up to the Oireachtas, Ministers, etc to act accordingly (which of course they do).

    The ICJ has actually gone slightly further than that in its judgment; it has ruled that it is for the UN General Assembly and Security Council to determine how Israel's unlawful presence in the occupied territories is to be brought to an end, and it has ruled that that all states are obliged to cooperate with the non-recognition of the Israeli occupation of the occupied territories.

    It has also ruled, significantly, that Israel's treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories "constitutes systemic discrimination based on, inter alia, race, religion or ethnic origin" in breach of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, and that it violates the human rights of Palestinians in various other ways.

    Why is this signficant? Because, as far as EU member states are concerned it's not just a matter of the ICJ ruling. There's an additional dimension to this in the form of the EU-Israel association agreement, which provides that it is to be based on both sides on "respect for human rights and democratic principles, which guides their internal and international policy and constitutes an essential element of this Agreement".

    So, while the ICJ judgment doesn't oblige other states to take any specific steps, it does find authoritatively that Israel is violating the human rights of Palestinians in the occupied territories. And EU member states can't ignore the fact that, as a result, Israel is accountable for this under the EU/Israel agreement, because respect for human rights is essential to that agreement.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,873 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Ah Israel says.. that's enough for you. If you were a true political analyst you wouldn't just parrot what a government led by a serial liar, who is on trial for corruption says

    Yet you had the nerve to suggest another poster lacked the ability to be objective. There is no doubt that you aren't capable of being objective given the mental gymnastics you do to defend Israel at every turn. The latest of which is to deny there was starvation due to a deliberate policy of blocking aid to the civilian population to achieve a war aim. If the situation was reversed you'd have little difficulty comprehending that a war crime was being commited by doing this.

    The Israeli government doesn't even deny why they did it,yet here you are trying to defend it. It's utter nonsense.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,682 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Ultimately, it won't be the ICJ judgment which will rule on what EU member states have to do, that will be the ECJ.



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