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Madeleine McCann

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,974 ✭✭✭✭briany


    You know very well what I mean - the account that the McCanns have stuck to and that the police have accepted.

    Less of the semantic nitpickery.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/apr/11/madeleinemccann#:~:text=During%20his%20interviews%2C%20he%20was,Detectives%20from%20the%20PJ%20leave.

    9.05pm:

     Gerry returns to the apartment through the unlocked patio doors to check on the children. Earlier that week, the McCanns had used a key to go in through the front door next to the children's bedroom but, worrying the noise might wake the children, they began using the patio doors, leaving them unlocked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,418 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    I wont be engaging with you anymore

    Anyone who compares what the Mc Canns did leaving three kids alone in an apartment to a parent who lives the tragedy of a cot death is quite shocking



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Yes, this is actually the first time of me hearing this. Even more I am surprised, that two adults and of apparent sound mind who studied medicine and graduated from university could give this as a credible answer. If the McCanns really believed in this answer to be the truth, I'd say that's way more than stupid, that's downright dumb. Dumb, way too dumb, for two adults with a doctor's degree.

    To me "abandonment", "failure to protect" as well as "neglect" is clearly the case here. On whether there are any chances of them getting a criminal conviction is unclear to me. To me the situation would also be different if the McCanns were distracted for for say some other unplanned reason or emergency that demaned their full attention so they were for 30 minutes not able to supervise their children. Then you could argue force majeur. But in this case this didn't happen, it was a planned get togehter in the restaurant / bar close by.

    I certainly don't have the insights into the investigation, but I don't see any other credible lead the police are investigating than Bruckner.

    I would presume the police have examined everywhere where Bruckner lived, stayed as well as his car he had back then and most likely gotten nowhere so far, otherwise there would be evidence and a conviction.

    The McCanns trying to cover up an accident during their absence from the apartment has been considered once, but was ruled out eventually.

    The tabloids are a bit hard to believe, as they just want to cash in on the story. A subject many are interested and reading about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,974 ✭✭✭✭briany


    If somebody is unwilling or unable to understand the point I was making about extraordinary circumstances befalling undeserving people then they're equally not worth engaging with from my end, either, so buh-bye. 👋



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,974 ✭✭✭✭briany


    You might want to do a bit more reading on the case if that's your first time hearing about the parents not wanting to wake the children by using the front door and instead using the sliding patio door instead (which could only be locked from the inside).

    I can't, nor would I, tell you what to take from the parents actions on the night or throughout the week. You can call it what you want, but it would never get a judgement of criminal negligence in legal proceedings. Short of that, I think they've paid the price. They don't need endless demonisation from members of the public.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I disagree with your opinion.

    The whole Madeleine McCann case is always dogged by the neglect of her parents that night.

    It bothered me that the parents were portrayed in the public as being the innocent victims in a disappearance of their own daughter but having knowingly and willingly contributed to that happening.

    This automatically will start the discussion, would somebody else as a parent have done the same, like leaving very small children unsupervised in an unlocked hotel room? Would you leave your passport and other valuables unlocked in a hotel room? - And I trust you've read similar postings like mine.

    It seems we will always disagree on this, rather than the focus on solving this crime.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 678 ✭✭✭juno10353


    I wonder, now that the twins are young adults, as are the other children on that holiday, what questions are their parents being asked. All the children must wonder if they too could have met the same fate as Madeline.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 22,628 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    Mod: Some off topic posts deleted. This thread is not for armchair psychologists to diagnose the McCanns, or to speculate whether posters here are suited to parenthood.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 62 ✭✭Ozmodya


    Oh I blame the abductor too (no matter what risk a parent takes, no fu*ker should be out there abducting a child), I was talking more about the McCanns being irresponsible in a general sense. I don't understand blaming the resort though - I mean, it's a resort, with thousands of guests every year.

    But yeah I've always despised the vile stuff said about the McCanns, the way people say they are hiding something sinister, the way people get agitated at them for being in the public eye so much - when their child was abducted like.

    But I still disagree strongly with people who say it was no big deal that they left their very small children without a babysitter while they went drinking, and that many parents would do that. I would need evidence of the latter (I'm not saying NO other parents have done it but I'm sceptical about the claim that many normal parents have). Having a few glasses of wine with your friends is bliss - the more you have, the more into it you get. You are not going to be as stringent about heading across to check every 30 minutes as the wine flows. Having no babysitter and the door unlocked is just crazy imo. Not because of the risk of being abducted - that's way down the list of likelihoods (although not impossible) but much more mundane stuff, like what has been mentioned: child getting up and hurting themselves/their sibling, child going outside to look for their parents, child becoming ill, choking risk, child being distressed by no parent around... it's not holier than thou to think this. It doesn't mean thinking one would never make a mistake as a parent.

    I don't think a family holiday - even one with dangerous sport (but parents and staff around) - is comparable. And nobody associates a bath with a risk, and we have to wash, so that's a bit disingenuous!

    No babysitter though, and in an area they're not that familiar with - that's a risk that's easy not to take. And it's a risk with no reward, even if nothing bad happens.

    I feel dreadful for the McCanns and agree that their punishment is waaay disproportionate but you can think two things: I also think they were irresponsible to make that decision (in a general sense, whether something bad happened or not).

    Post edited by Ozmodya on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    This is most likely down to different opinions. I personally would have reserved feelings towards my parents if I was the surviving child and my sibling is no longer with us because of my parents behaviour.

    Apparently they didn't even know if the windows were shut that night or not. I am sure the police have been over this time and time again.

    Interstingly at 9.05 Gerry noticed that the door was 45 degrees open whilst it was left ajar to 5 degrees. He puts the door back to 5 degrees.

    The same happens at 9.30 Matthew Oldfield checks up on the children. The door is again open, not ajar. He also doesn't see Madeleine directly which even more adds to the lack of supervision.

    Not knowing the scene exactly, but I would suggest it was rather a human than the wind from a possible open window that caused the door to be at 45 degrees?

    At 10 pm Kate discovers that Madeleine is no longer there. The police was called later on, and arrived at 10.30 pm.

    So theoretically Madeleine could have been taken right after Gerry left, at around 9.10 or so and whowever took her had more than one hour in advantage.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    In the German Wikipedia entry there is a statement, that Bruckner spoke to a fellow inmate in jail that he abducted a child once broke into an apartment through a window to steal something, but took a child and aducted the child, but didn't speak about murdering her. The fellow inmate in that German jail was from Romania and there may have been language issues as well?

    Until 2012 British police seemed convinced Madeleine was alive, but not sure on what this is based on.

    The German police have apparently evidence that she's dead, together with Bruckner's phone logging into a cell phone transmitter close to the apartment of the McCanns that night.

    There isn't a whole lot of information out there, lot's is most likely held back out of tactical reasons? Apparently also pictures on a USB stick which lead the German police to believe Madeleine is dead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,974 ✭✭✭✭briany


    The more I learn about Brueckner, the higher he goes in terms of probability as the likely perpetrator of Madeleine's abduction .

    Some highly disturbing factoids about Brueckner brought up in this C4 doc - Madeleine McCann: The Unseen Evidence.

    He was in the area on the night.

    He had form for targeted attacks.

    Was/Is a committed paedophile.

    Had been writing sick fiction about abducting people.

    Had a little hideout up by that reservoir.

    An associate claimed that Brueckner told him she 'didn't scream' on the night she was abducted. Brueckner got up and left quickly after realising what he said.

    German police seem to be consistently convinced that he did it.

    Not that I can say it with certainty that he did it, but everything points to him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The problem is, that the fellow prisoner Bruckner spoke to in prison is most likely not a credible witness in a trial.

    It'll be very hard to actually link Bruckner to the scene of the crime. There is no DNA evidence, no fingerprints that's what I am sure.

    Even if a body is found it'll be hard to prove that it was Bruckner. So far a body hasn't been found.

    The only thing we have is Bruckner's other criminal history as well as his cell phone which was logged at the night of the murder to the transmitter close to the apartment of the McCanns. On whether that phone was actually in his posission that night is another matter.

    Bruckner was familiar with the apartment complex, he did odd jobs there, so he knew his way around, and most likely what kind of people, families with small children, stayed there. He could even have seen the reservation on the table for the McCanns that night.

    Also we can't rule other theories out, the parents covering up an accident, sombody else taking a look every 30 minutes among the friends of the McCanns.

    However Bruckner seems very much the prime suspect at this point. If Bruckner didn't do it, it's my strong guess he was at least closely connected to the one who did it.

    Bruckner doesn't talk, and Bruckner wants to get out of prison where he's in for rape.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭oceanman


    But thats the problem, its rarely the most obvious in these situations….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,469 ✭✭✭nc6000


    Why would Bruckner have changed the ownership of his car the day after Madeleine went missing? Some coincidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 678 ✭✭✭juno10353


    New Claims

    Shocking new Madeleine McCann claim that 'drunk' German wife of British man ran the child over https://mol.im/a/14786711 via https://dailym.ai/android



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭Juran


    Pity the man died before it could be confirmed. If the woman is still alive, hard to find any evidence 20 years later .. unless she talks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,557 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    Sounds like a tv show that was on not too long ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,974 ✭✭✭✭briany


    It's not that other theories can be ruled out. I mean, you could suppose there's a chance she was abducted by aliens, though the chances are vanishingly small. When you look at the circumstances, though, and weigh up the probabilities, the Brueckner theory seems the most likely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,974 ✭✭✭✭briany


    I'm going by Occam's Razor where the theory that takes the least assumptions is usually correct.

    The McCanns-did-it theory posits that she died in a 2.5 hour window (possibly due to a Calpol overdose), that her parents had the wherewithal to discover that, get themselves together, hide the body, get ready for dinner, play it cool (unless they also swore the Tapas 7 to secrecy) and then took their chances with the body after the alert was raised and police and other people swarming around the apartment.

    Or the wandered-off theory which says that Madeleine woke up, got up, exited the apartment, and then didn't navigate the short distance to the pool, where she had spent time, but in some other direction, and managed to get herself in some spot where no-one would ever find her.

    To me, that is considerably more assumptions than the Bruckner theory of someone with form for targeted sex attacks on vulnerable individuals, who would stake out victims before striking and who was in the area.

    So, while we don't know, the Brueckner theory leads, imo.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,557 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    It’s usually safe to go with the one that involves less hoop jumping.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 304 ✭✭Roald Dahl


    Thank you for the link to the documentary, briany.

    For me it's 100% Brückner. It almost cannot be anyone other than him.

    While he may have cased the hotel for victims beforehand, it is equally possible that he was out thieving, happened upon Madeleine when he entered the McCann's apartment and decided on the spot to abduct her.

    I am hopeful that he will eventually be convicted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,974 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Maybe this is me tempering my expectations to avoid disappointment, but I doubt the German police will uncover anything in the latest searches that would convict him. It just seems that, with the area the search took in, it's a needle in a haystack situation.

    As ever, the Portuguese police appeared to comply with the investigation in a sort of feckless, grumpy, generally lethargic kind of way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I wouldn't get ridiculous here about aliens and so forth.

    We still can't rule out an accident and the parents covering things up. We also don't know if she was trafficked somewhere and is still alive. We also don't know why the British police in 2012 thought that Madaleine was still alive. Also remember, we still don't have a body. A body is necessary to prove murder.

    We also don't know if Bruckner acted alone. Regarding cell phone connection it's not impossible that he gave the phone somebody else that night, - it's not a crime to do so.

    I would agree to the rest, that it's strongly likely that it was Bruckner.

    It's also my guess that if it was Bruckner, he came planned and prepared. He may have had an accomplice, an unwitting accomplice, somebody the likes of telling him that the McCanns had reserved a table that night, etc… The accomplice may have been a co-worker with whom he did odd jobs around the apartment complex, he may have told the accomplice he wanted to burgle a place but would never tell he was interested in taking and molesting a child. Otherwise the accomplice would never have played along.

    Bruckner knew that his thoughts and tendencies were very abnormal, and if he wanted to do this and get away with it he had to plan.

    If Bruckner came prepared and had this planned he knew how much time he had. He most likely would have hidden the body at a place the police, not even the German police would ever suspect, somewhere in Portugal or Spain he's never been before, not the fresh water reservoir, not anywhere within a certain radius of where he lived or where the McCanns lived.

    He had around 1 hour 30 minutes head start, so if he planned, I think he would have first driven for 1 hour 30 minutes away somewhere molested her in his car, and then killed her and hidden the body. If the police had road blocks he was already 1 hour 30 minutes gone, maybe 2 hours.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,974 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Obviously, the aliens comment was a tongue in cheek way of pointing out that, technically, no theory can be entirely discounted.

    In contrast to the British police's belief in 2012 that she was alive, the German police now seem fairly sure that she's dead and the only reason they can't charge Brueckner with the crime is that they lack the hard forensics that seem to be necessary under the German system. Under different systems, I think he'd already have been convicted. The French convicted Ian Bailey in absentia of Sophie Toscan Du Plantier's murder with, imo, even less evidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The legal situation in Germany is similar to everywhere else in Europe.

    Bruckner is to be presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. We all may think that he most likely did it, some even say they're 100% certain, but real evidence and proof, we all don't have. Otherwise the Germans won't be still investigating and digging.

    For all this you first need a body, and you would need to match Bruckner's DNA and fingerprints to the victim.

    Just owning a USB stick with pictures ( he could argue having gotten from somebody and this somebody denies it out right…) or a cell phone registered to Bruckner connected to a transmitter close to the McCanns also doesn't prove murder. A possible conversation with another convict in jail would most likely be discounted as evidence in a court of law or discredited quickly by the defence. The jail convict in question is from Romania and doesn't even speak German or Engish fluently, so how could he understand what Bruckner was really talking about, apart from the fact that as a convict he isn't credible anyway…..

    I would largly believe the German police are acting on the pictures on the USB stick and thus are fairly certain that Madeleine is dead and was murdered.

    If Bruckner had molested her, he would have had to kill her later on. He knew that from the beginning. Too many traces to him, too much DNA, too much risk for Bruckner, so killing and hiding where she was never to be found would have been the only choice. And the next other only choice is to have a head start as much as possible.

    By the time the police in Portugal set up road blocks Bruckner had already molested Madeleine, had killed her, and hidden the body well. He would also have had time to clean his car.

    I would also guess that the police were on to him rather late, thus he'd have more than a head start on this. The police in Portugal first investigated the McCanns an their friends at the restaurant that night.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 195 ✭✭LunaLoo


    Im also in the he did it camp, from what we know of his previous convictions I'd assume the germans have images of whatever he done to the poor child. I'd say he is also in them but wearing mask and completely covered so they are sure it is him (height/build/eyes) but it isnt enough to say 100% it is him in court.

    (We know he filmed the assualt on the American lady and the irish holiday rep)

    I'm also confident the parents weren't involved in anything other than wrecklessly leaving them unattended... the timeline definitely wouldnt be enough to hide a body and go have dinner, also you'd just wait until the morning after and say she must have been taken during the night while you were asleep. Plus if they were responsible they would want the story to disappear from peoples minds and not keep bringing attention to it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I'd say the difference is only between "he did it" and my opinion that "he most likely did it".

    We also don't know what pictures the Germans do have. Is Bruckner identifiable in these pictures or not? Lot's of information is held back for tactical reasons.

    The core question would be how to tie Bruckner to the crime so that it's watertight and a conviction is possible. There is also a strong reason, why they are searching for a body which leads me to believe that the pictures they have are legally not enough.

    They need a body only to prove murder, but they don't need a body if they want to prove that Bruckner abducted her. But apparently they can't prove either that Bruckner abducted her?

    They know that time is running out as Bruckner is supposed to be released.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,974 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Where would Brueckner even go after release? Would there be no monitoring of him at all or attempts to limit his movements?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I don't know. They should probably castrate him to be on the safe side. As far as I know there is only electronic monitoring if there is some form of early release. I think he wouldn't get far due to lack of own finances. Apparently there is an outstanding fine for him to pay, which he doesn't seem to be able to. Depending upon this payment the release date is either later this year, or if not early next year.

    There was word about him going to some 3rd world country and get a face job so nobody would recognize him anymore. The information is from some interview. However nothing is confirmed. Maybe it's somewhere online, I don't know.

    As far as I know currently the state attorney in Germany doesn't have enough evidence to have Bruckner indicted. This why they kept looking and digging, in Portugal and in Germany.



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