Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

1184185187189190198

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Ffs thats what everyone you keep calling a "degrowth green agenda agent" is saying needs to happen!

    They need to redo their design because what they have right now will:

    • Not Fix the traffic problem and instead make it worse
    • Might not even pass ABP (2 years wasted)
    • Very likely not pass JR (3-4 years wasted)

    In which time they could instead accept the futility of putting forward something so shoddy, and design and propose a holistic project that:

    • Builds an actual bypass with less junctions
    • Remediates the existing N6 into a modern, useful distributor road
    • Modifies the approach roads to the city centre so that more people can get in more efficiently (Public transport and Active transport measures)

    Boards is in danger of closing very soon, if it's yer thing, go here (use your boards.ie email!)

    👇️ 👇️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,457 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Because they had long term planning in place?

    I lived in Bremen(home of Becks) for about 6 months many years ago, visited Emden(mate was doing Laser Tech there in the Collage). What was the surrounding countryside like in Emden? Looked nothing like Galway City. Ribbon Development they did NOT have. Small villages around them are much denser than Irish equivalent. Lots of people cycling in both Bremen and Emden back in those days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,300 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Emden is an excellent example, actually, but all of them show better infrastructure than what is proposed for Galway.

    This is the A31 in Emden:

    image.png

    Here’s B199, part of the Eastern leg of Flensburg’s bypass:

    image.png

    B200, the western leg of Flensburg’s bypass:

    image.png

    No shoulders, narrow median, 100km/h limit. Hmm…wie sagt man “2 plus 2” auf deutsch? Also, B199 has multiple at-grade junctions, complete with traffic lights.

    Only A27 in Bremerhaven comes close to the specification proposed for Galway (2-lane motorway standard road), but that road also serves Cuxhaven (population 52,000) and, of course, it connects both towns with the city of Bremen (population 577,000), just 70 km away: Bremerhaven functions as a second port for Bremen (the clue is in the name). Of course, if Galway had a much bigger city 70km away and Galway was that major city’s main port, and it had another small city beyond it, then it might need a motorway too. But it doesn’t, it isn’t and it hasn’t, so it doesn’t.

    The A31 Emden is what I think Galway actually needs as a “bypass”, although here that type of road would not be classified as a motorway, so no blue signs. Other than that it’s exactly what’s needed: a way for traffic that has no business in Galway to not have to go into Galway.

    It’s worth comparing the two, to explain why I don’t agree with the GRR proposal. A31 in Emden also has only four junctions serving Emden, one of which is the terminus; the Galway Ring Road has seven - why so many? And the A31 is a 2+2, while the proposed Galway Ring Road is a motorway-spec dual carriageway, and much more expensive - why the need for so much more capacity?

    The answer is that the proposed solution for Galway is the wrong kind of road, trying to do two jobs at once. It isn’t a bypass, it’s a collector/distributor, intented to facilitate more suburbs. More suburbs are fine, I’ve no objection to Galway growing either, but: all those new suburbs will be left with nothing except this road to connect them to the outside world, so eventually… traffic jams again.

    The people who designed this road even say this in their submission: it will make traffic worse in the long term. Why should we waste money on something that won’t work.

    Build a proper bypass road, and build a proper urban distributor (bus+bike lanes too), and retrofit bus/cycle lanes on the bypassed major roads inside the city. Don’t try and replicate other cities’ mistakes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,079 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Wait, what? A bypass and a distributor is exactly what people were asking for. I thin you're very close to "switching sides" on this one.

    We just don't a half-a$$ed double-jobbing road with lots of junctions as the bypass. And we want a distributor. Yes please. Sign me up anyway.

    I do understand people saying "yes I know it's bad, but it's all we're likely to get" but here we are on an infrastructure forum, I think we're allowed to criticise what we think are bad ideas



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    This thread and project is an example of the “perfect is the enemy of good” tactics being used alongside obstruction, fud, and planning objections to prevent anything from being built at all.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,634 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Naming cities with bypasses proves nothing, the claim is not that similar sized cities don't have bypasses. To make them some way relevant, you would have to prove that those bypasses alone, without creation/conversion of other roads to facilitate other forms of transport, allowed those cities to become/remain compliant with Ireland's Climate Action Plan, other national legislation and current EU regulations. That is obviously impossible.

    All you are proving is your complete failure/refusal to understand the basic point being made.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    If you read literally every other thread in infrastructure it's fairly common for people to accept the good over the perfect, this is an example of the "perfect /good being the enemy of the bad" its a bad project because its designers say it will make things worse compared to not building it, that is a bad thing for Galway.

    Boards is in danger of closing very soon, if it's yer thing, go here (use your boards.ie email!)

    👇️ 👇️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,079 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I don't think that's accurate. We're saying there's no excuse for doing what's well known to be bad, while telling everybody it's good. They're also refusing to do distributor work and sustainable transport projects until this road is done.

    It's almost like you're blaming everyone BUT the project team for the project team's stupid choices here. They're practically gaslighting by trying to force through a poor design over and over, while publishing predicted negative end results. How many years have they been at this now, while other roads projects push on without similar issues?

    There's only so many times you can say "everyone else is the problem". Not submitting documents? Not the project team's fault. Submitting data that undermines the project? Not the project team's fault.

    It's all someone else's fault. Someone with some kind of "green degrowth agenda" and unlimited nefarious power. Couldn't possibly be the fault of the project team who are responsible for the project.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    They're also refusing to do distributor work and sustainable transport projects until this road is done.

    See that’s an example of the exact same tactic/knife cutting both ways

    How does it feel when the bullshit delay tactics weaponised by this “green degrowth” lot are turned and aimed right back?

    Look at the long list of infrastructure projects this unelected bunch have screwed over with complaints and legal objections and proudly list on their front pages



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,634 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Objections mean very little in the grand scheme of things. An appeal or JR obviously mean a lot if they are successful. If successful, the question that has to be asked is "why it the authority/designers not resolve the issue(s) which resulted in the project failing to get approval at an earlier stage"?

    In this case, there seems to be fairly obvious grounds for the project to fail to get approval. Should it come to pass that it does get rejected on those grounds, that won't be on those pointing out the issues and saying that they should be rectified now, it'll be on those who ignored the issues or think that pointing to decades old bypasses of cities in other countries absolves the GCRR from complying with current applicable legislation.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    That’s extra funny seeing how this very thread is open since 2008 now and not a shovelful has been turned



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Again not like for like, a municipal area more than twice as large as Galway with a population of 35,000 less. You have to compare administrative areas that are very similar.

    You also seem to naively believe that a by-pass is some sort of exceedingly progressive infrastructure. It's just a by-pass. Even Moycullen and Tuam have them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,079 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Are you asking me how I feel about all Galway infrastructure progress being delayed because of this road? Roughly as irritated as I am by reading a large volume of posts about "green degrowth" on the infrastructure "roads" sub-forum.

    Would you be willing to leave that topic for other forums? I'd wager almost nobody on this forum is anti-roads. We're mostly sad infrastructure enthusiasts. By contrast, there are politics and conspiracy theory forums that would love that type of discussion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,788 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Whose fault is that though?

    You seem to have the idea that objectors have delayed this project this much, but the reality is project team did a bad job and thats why the JRs work. If project team come up with a solid design then any judicial review gets defeated in court.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    I literally gave an example two posts after that for similar sized in area/ population and density German city as Galway


    But continue on trying to deflect from same sized European cities somehow having more roads and bypasses



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 755 ✭✭✭GBXI


    Is Bus Connects not a public transport plan that is happening in parallel?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    Abusing the planning and legal system is a deliberate tactic to strangle, delay and kill infrastructure projects

    This road is just one of many many examples various organisations like FOIE boast about on their own front pages

    Instead of trying to blame the engineers and project managers trying to do something perhaps cast your eye at politicians and solicitors and activists abusing the system to grind everything to a halt



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Yes and as such is factored into the engineering forecasts that say they will make traffic worse with this road

    Boards is in danger of closing very soon, if it's yer thing, go here (use your boards.ie email!)

    👇️ 👇️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,788 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    How is it abusing the legal system to take and win a judicial review of a planning decision?

    The courts ruled ABP were wrong to grant permission to GCRR without taking the Climate Act into consideration. The only abuse of process was ABP in granting planning in the first place.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They're not similar in area nor density though are they? The figures alone should have stopped you posting such poor examples. Look for another administrative area that is circa 57.3 sq km with a population circa 85k.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    IMG_5878.jpeg

    Flensburg, Germany,

    92.5K people on 56.38 km^2 at 1,600/km density 

    Vs

    Galway, Ireland,

    85.9k, City area 57.3km^2, Density 1,500/km


    all figures from referenced Wikipedia articles for both cities



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    From what I remember the act did not exist at the time the planning was done

    Do you want planners to invent time machines too?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,788 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    it did exist, it had passed not long before but An Bord Pleanala should have taken it into account because it was law.

    Do you believe GCRR should be above the law?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    The act existed when the plans were approved, the onus is on ABP to make sure they approve things accordingto the existing legislation.

    If they made 2 storey house extensions illegal a week before the council decided to approve your plans for a 2 storey house extension you'd probably revise your plans to not have 2 storeys or just give up (you'd be mighty pissed off, but thems the breaks)

    The legislation had been in the works for a significant period of time, and was enacted on a well specified date. To claim ignorance of it was kind of silly on ABPs part, as they evidently were aware, given they didn't contest the legal challenge.

    Boards is in danger of closing very soon, if it's yer thing, go here (use your boards.ie email!)

    👇️ 👇️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    Do you believe laws should retroactively be applied



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's it, an ideal city to compare with. Close enough in all respects. I'd expect Galway to come across worse for all the planning reasons discussed in this thread, particularly against a Danish-run German city.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,788 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Laws were not retroactively applied in this case.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,539 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,469 ✭✭✭markpb


    I suspect the NTA have enough on their plate with NGT, Bus Connects and light rail for Cork. They’re probably happy to put this on hold for a while to give themselves some breathing room and not have to deal with a council who are either petulant or firmly believe there is no way to build any PT infrastructure without this road existing first.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,079 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Strange decision. As Connolly says they were happy to proceed in 2022 when this road was not yet approved.

    I wonder if this is possibly about the numbers we're all bleating on about: have the revised numbers blown a hole in the side of the GTS or something.



Advertisement
Advertisement