M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

poop emoji

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469813#Comment_123469813

As opposed to the simpleton pattern of

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poop emoji

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470802#Comment_123470802

I never wrote the word Knocknacarra, tho the above city has several suburbs of similar density and even design style on opposite side of city from industrial area

wouldn’t look out of place in Galway

notice more brick paving, all that CO2 tut tut

Seathrun66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470821#Comment_123470821

The discussion was on the density of Knocknacarra not Galway City. It's entirely clear from the posts preceding yours.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470778#Comment_123470778

You're answering my question with a question. Again.

Do you mean do-minimum or do-nothing? I think you're asking about do-nothing? The future year "Do-minimum" network includes the 2023 base network plus all of the schemes (highway and public transport) that are already built, or are committed, or are likely to be built by 2031 and 2046.

Are you asking about a do-nothing scenario? We don't want that. I'd wager that nobody wants that outside of some radical fringe element.

I think almost everyone here (has a "ge-growth green agenda etc etc") want a do scenario where the negative effects of the road are dealt with to be honest. And I think I've been very clear in giving my opinion of that repeatedly on here, specifically:

Remove some junctions of the proposed road so that it acts as a bypass (even if that really only facilitates a projected small volume of traffic), commit to re-design of the current N6 as a distributor.

But also worth pointing out that two things are "wrong" with my opinion:

1: It will apparently reduce the number of vehicles on the bypass such that it ceases to "justify cost" in the eyes of the proposers

2: I don't have numbers to justify my opinion other than "the projected numbers from the current design are bad"

Seathrun66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470546#Comment_123470546

Not similar. Leeuwarden at 129,970 (2025 estimate) is more than 50% of Galway's 2025 estimate of 85,945.

Google views of random streets is not good research. Try instead facts on the public or private transport of comparable cities.

poop emoji

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470875#Comment_123470875

Look at the area above city takes it would be same as Galway, Oranmore, Claregalway, Barna etc

The figure you are quoting is for the municipality population which 255 square kilometres!

That’s 16x16 kilometres

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470875#Comment_123470875

Don't forget barna,oranmore,gurrane,baile Claire,moycullen bushyparkand other areas that are in the greater galway city area,but I guess you are not from Galway so know sfa about it.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470885#Comment_123470885

It's a totally disparate point. The previous poster mentioned that Knocknacarra's population density wouldn't look out of place in cities in NL or DE. The pushback was that it would, because Knocknacarra contains vast undeveloped areas of land, unusable for the public good. But even that is all a sideshow because the greater problem is the connectivity between Knocknacarra and the city and even just between the different parts of Knocknacarra. There's lots and lots of dead-end cul-de-sac estates with low permeability. If you live somewhere like the rise it's almost impossible to consider bringing up a family without a car. It's planned really poorly (if "planned" at all).

I don't mean to rubbish the place, where I live is just as bad. But to think that this can't be improved upon is to misunderstand what is good about some of the better planned cities entirely: it's not just about density.

poop emoji

Literally found an example of a similar sized city to Galway that has lower urban density and a better road network and is not drowning in traffic

And people are still arguing against building much needed infrastructure in Galway

Seathrun66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470885#Comment_123470885

Figures for Galway are also municipality. Oranmore, Bearna, Claregalway, etc come under Galway County Council.

The extent of the Leeuwarden municipality thus clearly explains the lower density.

Seathrun66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470901#Comment_123470901

Nope. You're wrong and you've just invented a Greater Galway City area. Bushy Park is in Galway City and included in the city and density figures. The others are not in the city municipality are governed by Galway County Council. If local how can you not be aware of that?

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470929#Comment_123470929

Can you confirm, are you suggesting that when this road is built, a lower proportion of people in Knocknacarra will drive? Or maybe just that any resultant traffic will dissipate faster? Could you be drawn to discuss mode shares in Leewarden?

poop emoji

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470946#Comment_123470946

Nope you are comparing apples to oranges, 255sq km around eyre square would contain a much larger number of people than Leeuwarden municipality does and yet have much less in the way in way of roads, bridges and other infrastructure

Galway city population 85.9K in 2022

Galway county (including city) 276k in 2022 good chunk of whom are close to the city and commute in as the degrowthers are pushing people further out and making them more dependent on cars by strangling the city itself

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470916#Comment_123470916

True - the permeability is brutal there. A few walls knocked here and there would create a decent walking and cycling network in Knockers. Older surburan neighbourhoods of Newcastle and Renmore are far better.

It might be technically correct re density, but only if been very very selective. Knocknacarra does currently have the highest 1km density of City. Just Draw a 1km BOX with Knocknacarra Church in the Centre there and bingo - get highest density. Families living in Semi'd's.

Main issue here however is not the CITY its the Metro area and RURBAN commuters coming in from the County

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470956#Comment_123470956

😂Its obvious you are not local,you dont even know whst locals call the areas they live in. bet you were never in Galway or maybe you were here for a protest once.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470978#Comment_123470978

Yes we have something similar where I live. Quite high density, but I'm 800m to the nearest bus stop. It should never have been built like this. Almost everyone around me depends on the car for almost everything. We're seeing money being poured into the area now to even just put in footpaths and road crossings. I suspect nobody in the Council really foresaw the inefficiency and gridlock that would arise when 60%+ people drive. Or they were just overruled by people shouting "we need somewhere to live" (who could blame them).

poop emoji

Gutersloh Germany (great name!)

99K

Not one but two bypasses!

Calais, which many be familiar with, 66K, big beautiful bypass

La Rochelle, 79K, beautiful road network bypassing historic town on a sea with a river

And so on

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123471021#Comment_123471021

Gotta love the Germans.very efficient.

hans aus dtschl

Is the point being made here that Galway should have a bypass based on its population?

And a related question…

Is there anyone here arguing that Galway should not have a bypass?

And perhaps more pertinently, will any of the new posters answer a direct question at any point?

poop emoji

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123471036#Comment_123471036

Galway shoukd have the infrastructure of a similar sized European city plus 50% as Irish population is growing rapidly unlike the rest of Europe and infrastructure here has been seriously underdeveloped due to “objections” and whataboutery

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123471065#Comment_123471065

I don't think anyone is disputing that. However, the current plans being put forward by the council are plans that they have admitted will not solve the traffic problems, they will in fact make things worse.
Your anger and insults need to be directed towards them for wasting time and money on a pointless exercise. As has been posted earlier in this thread, other Irish cities have had road infrastructure planned, developed and opened in less time than Galway have wasted on this road.

poop emoji

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123471084#Comment_123471084

The council are not the one repeatedly objecting to this project and dragging it thru courts and endless reviews

I remember a certain Green senator and certain not to be named business strongly objecting and derailing the project

Seth Brundle

The council are not the one repeatedly objecting to this project and dragging it thru courts and endless reviews

You're right - what the council are doing is proposing to build something that they know will not get through the planning process but they know that there are enough people out there who will ignore the facts and stamp their feet demanding the road anyhow.

So you think we should build the road and ignore the council's own expert predictions? You haven't told us why you think we should ignore those predictions - maybe you'll oblige us with your insights into what will happen?

Don Juan II

Mode share for Leeuwarden. Source: https://expydoc.com/doc/6746287/1.-regionale-variaties-in-gebruik-vervoerwijzen-naar-motief

some basic translation:

auto = Cars 😜

ov = Public Transport

fiets = Bike

lopen + overig = Walking + other

Werk = Work

Onderwijs = Education

Winkelen = Shopping

Vrije tijd (+ overig) = Free time + other

If the projected outcome of the Galway Ring Road had a mode share similar to Leeuwarden, then they should build the Ring Road immediately. However, as has been pointed out several times, building the ring road and implementing the full GTS results in an increase in private car journeys and a decrease in walking and cycling.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123471130#Comment_123471130

Just to add to this, the Galway City Development Plan 2023-2029 mentions modal share 32 times, always with an aspiration towards reduction of cars. The Galway Transport strategy aims to reduce car commute mode share from 65% to 45% by the year 2020. This project projects an increase in the car mode share, that is to say it directly conflicts with both the Development Plan and the GTS which are referenced throughout the document.

?Cee?view

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123471204#Comment_123471204

Would you consider the project a failure if total journey times were reduced (as projected) but modal share use of cars did not decrease?

Seathrun66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123471014#Comment_123471014

Nope, you've listed some towns and areas that are not within Galway City nor its municipal reach.

There is no geo-political Greater Galway area. The political divisions in the county are Galway City Council & Galway County Council. Tis basic stuff.

Ad hominem stuff is for those who've got no decent points to make.

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123471343#Comment_123471343

Never been to Galway I see 😂, absolute spoofer,maybe try to derail some other thread.

Seathrun66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470961#Comment_123470961

Nah, you're comparing Galway to a city more than 50% larger in population terms. It has also got a large municipal area thus a lower population density. Were the same applied to Galway in relative terms of square kilometres then the population density would also drop hugely. Remind me again who brought up Leeuwarden as a comparison?

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123471256#Comment_123471256

A yes or no answer to this is near impossible, but what I would say is that no project is a total success or a total failure. Journey time reduction would be great, and it'd be useful for an awful lot of people, there's no denying that. My question would be would we need this level of expenditure on this project if we prioritised public and active transport measures first? Could we see journey time decreases along with modal shift that supports our countries emissions goals with PT and AT projects first?

It really seems like the council have decided not to do anything other than the road, and have ignored all evidence that might question the need for the road. Prime example of that is the modelling that they've done on the traffic volumes and journey times ignores induced demand. This is against TII policy, and really, against common sense. Those journey times reductions will not last anywhere near as long as they predict, because they are purposefully lowballing the increase in traffic.

Outside of that, there's a long history of road projects in Ireland of councils saying that they'll build a road which will allow for traffic reduction projects in the town/city, only for no projects to then take place after it's built. This is a fairly large contributor to why people aren't taking GCC at their word.

In fact, even when road projects are completed, people aren't happy with journey time reductions. The Dunkettle Interchange, a project that has resulted in journey time reductions on basically all routes, but now that it's open, it's supporter are claiming that new projects are needed around it. Traffic volumes are up, journey times are down, and still more roads are being demanded.