M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

hans aus dtschl · 21-05-2025 09:30AM

Yes it's like whack-a-mole of random "you're all a woke conspiracy" talking points followed by "BILD DE RODE"!

hans aus dtschl · 21-05-2025 09:52AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123468298#Comment_123468298

In all seriousness, if we were taking the approach of "just ignore protesters" like an authoritarian regime might do, there's really a good chance we really would demolish sprawled unsustainable developments like those and rebuild with transport-led developments. The retrofit of good transport systems into these low-density car dependent suburbs and exurbs is very difficult/expensive.

crusd · 21-05-2025 10:28AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469954#Comment_123469954

I was kind-of joking with my comment but it seems it was on the money. Knocknacarra's population density would not look out of place in a small Dutch or German city with excellent public transport options. And Parkmore would be typical of industrial zones near such cities in the Netherlands and Germany where they are clustered together. Difference is those places have the road infrastructure as well.

The crux of the argument against the RR seems to be "Well I wouldn't start from here if I was you". And even though there is a genuine argument that planning was non existent in the development of the city, here is where where we are and you cannot undo 40 years of development because it was not planned correctly.

I also get that people do not trust the system to deliver the public transport options in parallel so therefore just see it as more roadspace for cars. But the only solution for the future of a growing city is to do both to alleviate current problems and prepare for a future. And I cannot see how it is possible to implement the changes needed within the city to provide a fit for purpose public transport network without first redirecting some of the traffic. City Centre from a practical point of view, not a theoretical point of view, includes Dublin Road, Liosban, Sean Mulvoy Road, Headford Road, Quincentennial Bridge and Seamus Quirke Road. And the only way to allow those places develop the necessary infrastructure is to redirect a proportion of the traffic

hans aus dtschl · 21-05-2025 10:53AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470068#Comment_123470068

You're making the claim that Knocknacarra has the population density of a small Dutch or German city and you're going to need to back up that claim. And I'm willing to be persuaded by facts/numbers here if you can provide them but having spent considerable time in small Dutch and German cities I really would be shocked if you were right.

Then you start providing a theory about what my "argument" is. My argument is that their numbers don't back up the need for a bypass and that they tagged junctions onto it to try and boost the numbers, but that now skews the modal share, so they need to get rid of the junctions. Or alternatively keep the junctions and work on the mode share. But they do neither. And that's stupid.

Please do not speculate further about what my argument is, and then argue against that theoretical argument: I'm perfectly willing to tell you what my argument is, you can simply refute or reply to it, you don't need to make one up.

hans aus dtschl · 21-05-2025 11:06AM

Knocknacarra…22,000 people, will we be generous and say 10km squared? 2,200 per square km? I'm struggling to find a Dutch city with a population density of less than double that. And that's being generous.

Are you really arguing that Knocknacarra is not in need of significant remedial urban transport works? Or that we cannot undo 40 years of bad urban development? Because there are many schemes currently active around the country trying to do exactly this. Because we must. And it's going to cost a fortune.

Seth Brundle · 21-05-2025 11:12AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470068#Comment_123470068

I also get that people do not trust the system to deliver the public transport options in parallel so therefore just see it as more roadspace for cars.

This is the crux of the problem though. There is no plan to deliver public transport options in parallel. There is no plan to discuss any kind of alternative transport options at all.
What is being offered is a plan for a plan.

hans aus dtschl · 21-05-2025 11:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470068#Comment_123470068

On your last paragraph, I think we all agree on the desired end goal. But you do realise that their projected numbers show that a higher proportion of people will be car dependent after they do this project and all of the other projects currently planned or under construction right?

It's not that I don't trust them to deliver public transport options, it's that they have literally said that when everything is done, a higher proportion of people in Galway will be car dependant than currently. That is to say even if they did deliver the proposed public transport options, the city would still be in a worse place. You do understand that, right? That their proposal - according to them - specifically means that a smaller proportion of people will use public or active transport than do right now? That a higher proportion of people will need to drive everywhere than do now.

Can I ask you if you're OK with that outcome? And if so, then I don't really think we need to go around and around in circles, because that's the specific outcome I don't agree with.

hans aus dtschl · 21-05-2025 11:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470219#Comment_123470219

To be fair they do explicitly link this project to all of the projects currently proposed or underway as part of the Galway Transport Strategy. But they also state clearly that when these are all complete, that the modal share in Galway will see a greater proportion of people driving than now.

I don't even have feelings about whether I trust them to deliver public transport or not. They've written down what the proposal is.

poop emoji · 21-05-2025 11:23AM

Leuwarden 124k people at density of 522km^2

Galway 85k people at density of 1500km^2 (another 190k in county most of whom are adjacent to the city)

Leuwarden has a ring road and a motorway bypass east to west

Drop a pin anywhere on google maps and it looks like “urban sprawl”

hans aus dtschl · 21-05-2025 11:49AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470254#Comment_123470254

I appreciate the effort but you're talking about Galway including the city centre here. The inner urban area of Galway likely has even higher density, it's very compact, it's great. But the suburbs are typical Irish suburbs with low density and car dependency by design. It's really an "Ireland" problem more than just a "Galway" problem.

Leuwarden doesn't just have a "ring road" it has a distributor. Check out those footpaths and cycle lanes each side and a junction every hundred metres or less and dense development all along it. It's great. And there's a motorway bypass, quite far removed from the city, with no development around its junctions. That's also great. Almost nobody in Leuwarden is using that motorway to access a different part of the city. Whereas almost everybody using the proposed road in Galway would be using it to access a different part of the city - that's according to the design team's numbers, not mine!

And again…I'm not against a bypass for Galway. But this "ring road" is trying to take the place of the urban distributor because the existing Galway distributor has basically failed.

poop emoji · 21-05-2025 12:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470331#Comment_123470331

No I’m talking about Galway city

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galway

And Galway county

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Galway

With figures for 2022 compared to Leuwarden which be of similar size area to Galway with 108K people on what they call “urban” area

They even have a 22 storey building in very center! Gaasp the horror

There’s a 360 4 lane ring road at radius of 1.5km around city and motorway bypass at 3.5km around southern half of city

A 10th century city with a river (17+ bridges!), canals and a railway, and wastetreatment plant, with sprawling industrial estates, and low density homes that look like they were copied and pasted from Mervue in their design

crusd · 21-05-2025 12:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470152#Comment_123470152

Galway City - Population density 1,500/km2, Aachen - 1,600 /km2, 1,257 /km2, Breda 1500/km2.

Its like ye believe there are no residential suburbs in other countries with individual houses. Here is what a typical Dutch city looks like outside the centre

hans aus dtschl · 21-05-2025 12:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470373#Comment_123470373

I am genuinely not sure what you're talking about here. The previous poster said that Knocknacarra's population density would not look out of place in a small Dutch or German city. This only works if you look at the most densely populated parts of Knocknacarra and ignore the undeveloped land entirely, completely defeating the purpose of the comparison.

And you're describing a 4-lane "ring road" (it's a distributor) but ignoring that it's entire length has active transport and very frequent junctions.

I am really lost by your argument: can you please bring this back to how the Galway ring road's projected numbers make sense?

poop emoji · 21-05-2025 12:36PM

Them bricks for not just building but paving almost every residential road in Netherlands, that’s very “green” of them, I’m sure the factory that produces these is powered by unicorn farts and not burn gas during production which thousands of years of cycling won’t offset

hans aus dtschl · 21-05-2025 12:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470457#Comment_123470457

No, you're projecting again. "It's like you believe cats are dogs" etc. Quote obviously the population density of the densely populated parts of Knocnacarra are not a problem. And the large tracts of undeveloped land and car-dominated transport between those and the city specifically ARE a problem.

I'm not sure how long I can keep replying in good faith to this.

Are you comfortable with a larger mode share of car dependency or not?

poop emoji · 21-05-2025 12:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470481#Comment_123470481

Here is a city in Netherlands with similar population to Galway, lower population density, large industrial areas, sprawling single story estates (with 1-2 cars in each driveway on google street view), with a 360 degree “distributor road”, and east to west motorway bypass from one side to the other of the city

a real world example that rubbishes the claims made higher up thread about Galway “not being worthy” of a bypass, by the same degrowth people who would use Netherlands as an example of “green” “cycle heaven”

crusd · 21-05-2025 01:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470500#Comment_123470500

The planning for the road cannot commit to any improvements delivered by other projects so I don't really understand why you are expecting them to include projections outside of the scope of what they have to deliver.

Ideally you have an integrated plan that brings all strands together but as seen with the summer city centre plan every aspect of any plan will have its own slew of don't do anything ever near me ever objectors.

In addition, the reason there are large parts of undeveloped land is because the infrastructure cannot cope, so the population density is limited by the road and transport infrastructure

Seth Brundle · 21-05-2025 01:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470546#Comment_123470546

Can you provide links to the documentation submitted for those Dutch roads which said that they would increase traffic congestion in those towns?

Or are you just trying to throw insults at anyone who challenges your nonsense?
To my knowledge, nobody here is against Galway getting a bypass - what they are against is the planned road which is to act as both a bypass but also a distributor road, a road that the council admit will make things worse for the people of Galway. Nothing to do with being green or any other crap that wafts into your head! You already have been told this and yet you continue hurling meaningless insults towards anyone who does not agree with your nonsense!

poop emoji · 21-05-2025 01:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470584#Comment_123470584

What these degrowth NYMBY/green objectors don’t get is that the same arguments can be made in other direction and things line cycle lanes, buses, train infrastructure can be held in objection limbo for years

Would it be great if there was an “integrated” plan, sure

But let’s be realistic a wider plan means more objections and chance that whole project is ground to a halt because someone on other side of city from bypass doesn’t want to lose their front garden to a bus lane, and vice versa

It’s a cop out excuse

poop emoji · 21-05-2025 01:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470590#Comment_123470590

Has the circular 4 lane distributor and a 180degree motorway bypass in this Dutch city caused increased congestion?

From google street view it looks like a very pleasant city with cycle lanes in old city center and more industrial/residential areas on outskirts without much traffic despite every home having a couple of cars parked in front

Yourself and others are are either objecting for the sake of objecting or worse there is very backward ideology underlining the concerns about this infrastructure that Galway badly needs

Seth Brundle · 21-05-2025 01:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470648#Comment_123470648

So you're accepting that the Dutch roads were planned with a view of not increasing congestion and facilitating other modes of travel whereas as has been pointed out to you many times (and you're ignoring) the GCRR has not?
Why are you allowing other cities to have something that works for people but are being abusive towards anyone who wants the same for Galway?

I and others are not objecting to the GCRR plans for the sake of it despite your accusation. I believe that spending over a billion on something that the council admit will not work is a huge waste of money. Let the council propose a solution that doesn't make Galway's traffic worse and I'll stand back!

Galway does not need badly planned infrastructure which the council say will increase traffic - it needs a properly planned and integrated setup. Offer that to anyone who is sitting in their car this evening and they will agree with me.
However, you are right to suggest that "there is very backward ideology" at play - there is, but it is with the councils who have spent millions planning something they already knew will not work and will, in the end, cost over a billion euro.

kabakuyu · 21-05-2025 01:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123469813#Comment_123469813

Grow up.

riddlinrussell · 21-05-2025 01:34PM

Your throwing about of the terms degrowth and 'the green agenda' about posters here is not helping your case (do you even have a case other than to say the words degrowth and 'green' in every post?)

You've given examples of cities with distributor roads (with high quality PT and AT facilities) and separate bypasses.

These examples are indeed relevant to the conversation being had, that the road as designed by GCC fails to do all the things these cities are doing in the Netherlands because its trying to be both the distributor and the bypass (pretty sure the exact same reason the existing N6 is a failure)

90% of people aren't saying there should be no bypass, they are saying that GCC are doing an awful job of doing so, so bad their own analysis is literally saying 'the road as designed will make things worse'

It's not 'degrowth' or 'the green agenda' to:

a) not want the government spaffing away millions on a scheme that literally says in its own planning documents that it will make things worse

b) acknowledge that the plan as stated has about as much chance of getting through the process ahead of it as a child's drawing of a motorway would, because it fails totally to address its own stated failings by either dropping junctions or incorporating a significant public and active travel component to shift the mode share figures into the positive at a bare minimum. (God knows what else might be unearthed in the plans if it ever actually goes to Judicial Review)

poop emoji · 21-05-2025 01:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470679#Comment_123470679

They have roads and bypasses for a similar sized city

Galway doesn’t and people are raising all sorts of nonsense to delay building infrastructure that would bring us to a level of average European city for another few decades while the city continues to be strangled

The council is not “admitting” bypass won’t work, the few loudmouths representing NIMBYS, greens and degrowth hippies are, often pulling at straws

Ignoring that there similar sized European cities with road infrastructure like being proposed where the population is not stuck in gridlock

If anything it looks like it this particular city the “distributor” and “bypass” allowed for cycle lanes all over the city center by taking cars out

hans aus dtschl · 21-05-2025 01:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470584#Comment_123470584

But it does. The planning for the road specifically and explicitly commits to improvements delivered by the other projects. PLEASE READ THE DOCUMENTATION!

hans aus dtschl · 21-05-2025 01:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470619#Comment_123470619

OK seemingly neither you nor the other poster continuously engaging the same way have read the project documentation. The project documentation submitted to ABP explicitly references the other projects which are part of the integrated plan, and provides the predicted mode share numbers.

If it's a "cop-out excuse" as you're entitled to opine, then the project is truly doomed, because these are currently being leveraged as reasons why the project CAN go ahead.

crusd · 21-05-2025 01:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470590#Comment_123470590

Again - i cannot beleive how obtuse the argument has become. A model on the impact of the road could not include the impact of projects that have not even been proposed yet. The assumptions within the model assumed nothing additional would be done from a public transport point of view.

It only includes elements already planned per the GTS for example which has a more integrated model.

hans aus dtschl · 21-05-2025 01:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470755#Comment_123470755

Oh Ok, so if I understand you correctly, are you're saying it's OK that this project will cause negative effects, because projects (which are not yet proposed) will counter those negative effects? That's the basis of your argument that this road should go ahead?

crusd · 21-05-2025 01:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470766#Comment_123470766

Care to discuss what the city would look like in the do-minimum scenario? No one moving anywhere as the population goes towards 150k

Seathrun66 · 21-05-2025 02:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123470254#Comment_123470254

Your claim was specifically Knocknacarra having a higher density, not Galway City. Do you have figures for Knocknacarra?

M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

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