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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    In what should be seen as a dose of reality for any who'd still propose the FA-50 or similar as suitable for Ireland's needs. The Philippines, one of the original operators of the FA-50 has placed an order for the F16C in its block 70/72 variant. This is an advanced model with a particular emphasis in electronic upgrades, including the SABR APG-83 radar and an advanced new self defence ECM suite.
    It is a demonstration writ large that "interim" or adapted LiFT fighters are wholly inadequate for the air policing role in a pelagic environment (And indeed any other IMHO)

    The last dedicated fighter in its inventory, the Northrop F-5, was retired in 2005, leaving a gap that lighter platforms like the Korean-made FA-50PH—a trainer-turned-light-attack jet—have only partially filled.

    The FA-50, while useful for counterinsurgency operations against groups like Abu Sayyaf in the southern Philippines, lacks the range, payload, and advanced sensors needed for broader deterrence missions. The arrival of the F-16s promises to bridge this divide, offering a leap in technology that could reshape how Manila defends its sovereignty, particularly in the volatile South China Sea, where China’s expansive claims overlap with the Philippines’ exclusive economic zone.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,809 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I've been saying for years that light single-engine jets like FA-50 and F-7X are completely unsuitable for our fighter-interceptor needs.

    They are trainer variants, tactical ground attack and second-line CAP solutions, nothing more.

    They do not have the range, speed, loiter or weapons capacity suitable for operation as a QRA interceptor from a rock in the north Atlantic out into a million square miles of skies and seas.

    I'm hoping the government and the DF have learned the folly of buying inferior and civvy spec equipment for military roles - and the MRV spec and light helicopter projects indicate that they may have. And so it should be with the fast jets implementation. Either buy the right plane for the job, or don't bother at at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,790 ✭✭✭roadmaster




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,929 ✭✭✭thomil


    Could they be looking to shift the aircraft currently leased to the Czech Republic over to Colombia once the lease expires in 2029 and the F-35s come online there? The number of aircraft would fit and the article doesn't specify the version of Gripen being discussed.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    The Colombian President has said that the Gripen is the latest version, already in service in Brazil.
    I've linked the tweet below.
    But translation is below, the offsets are very interesting.

    Following the letter of intent signed by the government of the Kingdom of Sweden, and the approval of the country's strategic air defense as a priority project,
    I report:The fleet of aircraft to be acquired is completely new, with the latest technology, already deployed in Brazil, and is a Saab 39 Gripen brand.
    There will be a social investment compensation consisting of a state-of-the-art flexible solar panel production plant located in the department of Córdoba, the installation of drinking water for several locations in the department of La Guajira, and the restoration and installation of state-of-the-art medical equipment in the central tower of the San Juan de Dios Hospital in Bogotá.


    To my mind that does specify the choice is Gripen E/NG.
    He's making clear its the Brazilian spec and tech that will be inducted.
    I had thought that the deal done with Brazil included a caveat that Embraer would be manufacturing and supporting any South American sales.
    I cant recall where I read that now, so I may well be wrong on that front.

    On Cnocbui's link above, the article he linked is from Feb and it was widely reported at the time that the USA had leaned on Colombia in an effort to push the F16.
    Given that the Columbian announcement is a month later? A deal may well have been reached that keeps US DOD happy.
    It may well yet try and undermine the Gripen deal and it should IMHO push SAAB towards an EJ200 or M88 version, both engines have similar and even smaller volume than the GE414.
    At least SAAB can rely on Volvo FlygNapvet to deliver the required GE414s, unlike the Indians whose LCA is still hugely delayed with the GE engine deliveries running 2 years late.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,767 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Colombia has been considering buying Gripen jets for a long time, but a temporary hurdle emerged last month when a local media report claimed that the U.S. would not approve the re-export of the General Electric F414 engine, used by Gripen.

    In theory, this move could have been used as a means of pressure to force Columbia to accept the offer of a rival aircraft, the F-16.

    However, Saab officials reacted quickly and gave assurances that there was no element of pressure or dependence on the Americans.

    "Acquisitions of fighter jets are always accompanied by a lot of rumors. Saab has had all the necessary licenses and authorizations for Colombia for many years and, therefore, we have no reason to speculate further on this subject," Saab briefly told the quoted source.

    Saab is already working with Brazil, where the Gripen contract has led to the construction of an aircraft assembly, testing and evaluation facility in São Paulo.

    That clears that up. No doubt they will be built in Brazil.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,767 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Interesting snippet on current pricings:

    With an estimated price of $228.12 mln per unit, JAS 39 Gripen is comparable to French Dassault Rafale. According to the latest contract with Serbia signed August 2024, Rafale costs around €225 million apiece. Then, the approximated price for a F-16V, based on a sales permit to the Philippines published just the other day, is up to $279 million per fighter. Lastly, a F-35 costs nearly $208.3 million per unit, as follows from a 2023 contract with the Czech Republic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,809 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Important to note that these prices are for the comprehensive package, covering engines, weapons, training, and spares.

    So a squadron of 18 Rafale type E* would cost something like €3.8 Billion, spread out over a 5 year delivery programme.

    And I'm sure our increasingly close defence hardware partnership with France, and the EU defence fund could knock as much as one billion off that total.

    Very do-able.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,767 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    SAAB may now be offering the Gripen with a Rolls Royce EJ230 engine. That's going to make it a far more palatable option for many. That would explain why they felt they could offer it to Portugal and Columbia.

    Eurojet offered this engine to SAAB, with thrust vectoring, back in 1998.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Just as an aside, we see today what 3 "activists" will do for their own BS, if any hardware is going to be based in Shannon the perimeter security is going to have to be significantly improved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭sparrowcar


    Going by the pics online that perimeter fencing is ancient. Surprised it complies with regulations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,793 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    SAAB Gripen sounds like the best choice for Ireland, if it ever came down to fighter jets for the Air Corps.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Indeed Tinytobe. A crackin aircraft. Why the hell not have some? Must admit I have a bit of a soft spot for the KAI FA 50 as well…top of the range version. Think we need to supplement the interception planes with a squadron of Super Tucano for close air support role. And sure we might as well get one of them 390 medium lift aircraft from Embraer as well to support overseas missions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,364 ✭✭✭source


    Jonny I'm begining to think you work for Embraer 🤣🤣🤣



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    Is there an official set of Top Trumps fighter jet cards so we can settle this once and for all? We can gift a set of cards each to the minister, the DoD and the Air Corps to ensure they make the right decision too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 845 ✭✭✭ricimaki


    Of course there is! Although it does extend to military aircraft in general, so you'd have to be careful the E-3 Sentry doesn't win because it has better range…

    On the Gripen potentially getting Rolls Royce engines, is there a credible source for that? Re-engining any aircraft is not an easy, fast or cheap task. By the time a new engine has been integrated, tested and available for sale, 6th gen fighters will be much closer to reality, and a lot of potential buyers will have already purchased from elsewhere. It also gives the UK the ability to veto foreign sales as well - not as big of an issue as the US veto, but definitely something the Swedes will be weary of before committing to the project…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,809 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    No air force in the market for Gripen or F16 now will be affected by the fortunes of Gen6 fighters. They are markets which exist in different universes.

    For at least the first 20 years of operation, Gen6 planes will be like the Raptor. Kept by their country of origin as proprietary technology, never to be shared, even with allies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭sparky42


    not really, not if you accept that Tempest is 6th gen, I mean you have a broad consortium for the developers already and suggestions that Japan is reportedly trying to get India involved.maybe for the US and China they can limit users for a period, but the costs alone mean the need for a larger user base.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    https://theaviationist.com/2025/05/11/first-look-hurjet-spanish-markings/



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Looks like a handy piece of kit that Hurjet. If it's good enough for Jonny Spaniard I reckon it's one to add to the bidders list



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Jonny, the Spanish are buying it as a trainer. To train pilots who will go on to fly actual combat aircraft. The very last thing Ireland needs, as has been said to you and nauseaum for years at this point, is a trainer, a LiFT or any other such airframe that isn't fit for purpose but gets crowbarred into service.

    We need high speed, either sustained high transonic or supercruise to allow any interloper be intercepted at max distance from shore. We need an airframe carrying a radar with at least 100km range against a 4mtr² RCS. To allow target identification and prosecution independent of ground control.

    We need sufficient weapons capacity to ensure deterrence can be imposed and all of that needs to be packaged in an airframe that can spend 1hr+ on station at 400km offshore.

    Do you think the Hurjet can fit any of those requirements?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,809 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Dassault are refurbishing 18 No. Rafále B at their Merignac facility for urgent transfer to the Irish Air Corps.

    1000031641.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,809 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Sorry, I couldn't resist 🤣



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Vive la France!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,790 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Taken from the Harris speach to PDFORA.

    I’m pleased to report too that we are making significant progress in acquiring radar and sonar capabilities, so that we can properly police our skies and seas.

    Radar doesnt police the skys just tells you whats there could this be a hint towards Air Policing Jets?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,929 ✭✭✭thomil


    To quote a certain FBI Special Agent, “I want to believe!”

    I really want to believe that the Irish Government has been shocked into action well enough for them to be working on an all-encompassing agreement that secures a radar, command centre, air intercept capability and any supporting services, as well as subsurface detection capabilities all from one of our European “partners”. However, I can’t shake the feeling that such an all-encompassing approach is beyond the capabilities of the government and senior civil servants to grasp.

    Maybe I’ve been burned by the government’s approach to civilian matters down here in Cork, where several successive governments have failed to provide a proper motorway connection to Limerick, an Events centre, have allowed an already unambitious public transport project (BusConnects) to be atrophied to the point of utter uselessness, and are long-fingering several other projects. But at this point, I’ve really lost pretty much all faith in that regard…

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭sparky42


    While it tracks with his earlier comments regarding his position, in reality I can't see it coming much earlier than the LoA3 era anyway even if it was something being actively looked at. My worry as well is that in some cases like I think the Leonardo submission we end up with the 346 and everyone goes back to pretending that the issue is solved.

    I mean also before even that, given the 2 incursions onto Shannon in the last couple of months, maybe we need to consider security issues as well, cause I can well imagine some of our professional gobshites deciding that any Irish fighters would be an affront to their idea of neutrality.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,809 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I don't think he has used "police" in the proper context there at all. I think he means 'monitor'. And the radar and sonar are for simply that.

    I don't think either he or this current government have any notion of moving in any way towards fighter interceptor acquisition in the current Dáil.

    I foresee some sort of sticking plaster solution where the PC-9 replacement turns into something like Babcock Defence Services currently contract into the French Air and Space Force for basic training through their fighter training academy at Cognac-Chateaubernard, i.e., a mixed fleet of new PC-7 MKX and L-39 Albatros.

    1000032307.jpg 1000032308.jpg


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