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Why do people drive unnecessarily large cars?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,582 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    I did a Truth Social search for that, and I was arrested and imprisoned in Guatemala.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,378 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Well given that we have data about all-cause mortality on roads in Ireland (i.e. somewhere in the region of 300,000,000 vehicle kilometres between any cause of fatality), it's safe to say that arguing over whether an SUV is more dangerous than a car is like two bald men fighting over a hair comb.

    Secondly, in your hypothetical scenario, the danger is still created by a person. It could be the driver, if their actions were reckless or wholly unreasonable, or it could be caused by someone outside the vehicle disregarding the rules of the road.

    Indeed, I vaguely recall the "bash drivers" brigade making exactly this claim about there being no such thing as dangerous roads, because a road is inanimate. Is it true then that vehicles can be inherently dangerous but roads are not?

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,420 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Again, a steering wheel view of the world.

    As mentioned in my hypothetical scenarios, all else is the same bar the cars used. But the outcome is different. That's down to the car.

    If you do want to suggest that drivers are dangerous, not cars, the conclusion here would be that SUV drivers are more dangerous. Is that what you're saying?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,401 ✭✭✭mulbot


    Would we not need to see the %of accidents involving SUV's as a whole.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 563 ✭✭✭Speedline


    If SUVs really are the 'big bad wolf', surely insurance premiums are sky high for them.

    Or are they?



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,420 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    That's included or accounted for in the research mentioned earlier in the thread AFAIK.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,378 ✭✭✭SeanW


    A driver who drives in a reckless manner, will definitely amplify the risk they pose if they're doing it an SUV, that much I will concede. A driver who does not drive an irresponsible manner by definition is not a threat.

    But my point is that in previous discussions, anti-motorist activist claimed that it was impossible for an inanimate object (in that case, a road with bad layouts or unfit for the type or volume of traffic) to be dangerous. Now, some of the people who might agree with that sentiment are now claiming that another inanimate object, i.e. a vehicle, does present inherent danger.

    If one accepts that an inanimate object can be inherently dangerous, then I could entertain the idea of SUVs being "dangerous" if we could agree that environmentalists and NIMBYs who oppose motorway projects have blood on their hands, considering that the construction of motorways in Ireland is one of the factors leading to the collapse of road fatalities in this country.

    I thusly have two simple questions:

    1. Is it possible for an inanimate object to be inherently dangerous?
    2. If yes, to what objects does this apply, in the context of road safety?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,240 ✭✭✭creedp


    Are the passengers hiding under the seats in embarrassment?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,468 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Its not a valid question. In fact its a completely redundant debate.

    This is a SUV.

    1000031048.jpg

    This is also a SUV

    1000031049.jpg

    This is a saloon car

    1000031052.jpg

    This is also a saloon car

    1000031050.jpg

    The only thing thats matters is any particular car's overall NCAP safety rating for vulnerable road users. And in that regard, the highest scoring are:

    The second largest Mercedes Saloon, the E-Class

    1000031053.jpg

    The D Segment Skoda Superb / VW Passat large estate twins

    1000031056.jpg

    And the 2.3 ton, 17 ft long, 7 seater, Mazda CX-80

    1000031055.jpg

    So, lets have a proper conversation please, about the overall level of risk, including passive safety and driver assist functionality. And not just SUV Bad, Saloons and Hatchbacks Good, because its nonsensical.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,828 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Perhaps not weight as that would be detrimental to switching people to EVs.

    Changing taxation bands influenced what people bought from 2008 onwards and it's why we had a huge amount of diesel cars around 2015. We introduced a NOx tax in 2020 and now we're looking at petrol being the most popular fuel type with EVs getting a huge boost the last few years as well

    Taxation works to change people's buying behaviours



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,369 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Just wonder how the Government will make up the shortfall in revenue once there's a large percentage of the motoring fleet as EV's, so they would lose all the moneys gained from Diesel & Petrol cars, will there be a new weight based system…



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,420 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it's interesting to see that the VRU scoring is weighted 60/40 in favour of actual impact tests vs collision avoidance tech. i wonder how that translates to the real world - is the tech now so good it should potentially outweigh the impact tests in the ratings, or are we still a long way off that?

    also, this is from the euro ncap page for the big mazda - how can the impact rating vary so widely across the bottom half of the windscreen? the same image is totally uniform for the superb for the same area:

    pedestriancrashimage.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭con___manx1


    My parents got a larger car simply because it's easier for them to get in and out of as its higer from the ground. One of them has a terminal illness.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,420 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    A driver who drives in a reckless manner, will definitely amplify the risk they pose if they're doing it an SUV, that much I will concede. A driver who does not drive an irresponsible manner by definition is not a threat.

    of course they can be! the point is to reduce injuries/fatalities regardless of cause; and the type of vehicle involved is in play, regardess of cause/blame. a driver can be blameless but still the chance of a fatality is increased if the vehicle in question is an SUV; e.g. a child running out in front of them.

    something similar happened a friend of mine FWIW - a drunk woman stumbled off the footpath and fell out in front of him as he was driving home one evening. no-one blamed him; thankfully the victim's family were adamant on that front.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Mazda has a decent sized bulge in the dashboard on the drivers side. I'm guessing the NCAP used a left hand drive car and the dashboard bulge had some effect.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,420 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    jaysus, you'd hope your head would have pretty much stopped hitting anything substantial after stoving a windscreen in!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,828 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    As it currently stands the taxes from petrol and diesel fuels are going towards SEAI grants, the grants are already reducing so as long as they continue to reduce the taxes from ICE fuels can also reduce

    With regards to annual motor tax and VRT they'll need to start bumping them all up if they want to keep them cost neutral else you're going to have people paying 300-500 to paying €120 on annual motor tax

    Don't forget the savings from the EU carbon fines, healthcare as there's less toxic fumes etc etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,828 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I don't think anybody is arguing against somebody who might need an SUV. Most of the people out there driving one don't need one



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Government could raise property tax (and even bring back water charges! Lol) instead of using VRT as a proxy wealth tax.

    High cost of fuel and second hand cars punishes people on lower incomes and those who can't work from home or afford to live near their place of work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,240 ✭✭✭creedp


    Not to mention a few on here want to crucify larger families by making it prohibitly expensive to buy, tax and park larger cars. Maybe they would be satisfied if such families provided documentary proof annually of their 'need'to own such tanks?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Don't be giving anyone ideas now!

    These cars or SUVs are perfectly legal and in some cases not even that big. Completely unacceptable in a modern democracy to want to ban them.

    What next? As I stated tongue in cheek previously I am actually disgusted by the blight of McMansions in this country. Perfectly legal so long as the councils planning department allow them. That must be respected.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,420 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    that's circular reasoning, no? if they're legal that's what makes them OK; but trying to regulate against them would be 'unacceptable'?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,401 ✭✭✭mulbot


    And don't mention the people who want to drive big motorbikes when a Honda 50 will do the job.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Nuance, devil in the detail. Regulation based on reason and logic takes time.

    Communists screeching to have something banned, not regulated, without an accepted definition of what they want banned is quite different scenario.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 179 ✭✭BP_RS3813


    Sean, drivers will make mistakes everyone knows that. Crashes will inevitably happen no matter how safe we think we can be.

    When these mistakes happen the size of the vehicle will be a factor. Just because there is very few crashes out of x drivers doesn't mean we should stop improving safety.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Poxy paywall. What's it about below the free portion?

    The start does include stats that pedestrians and children are 44% and 82% more likely to be killed in a collision by an SUV versus a car.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Bigger, heavier vehicles with taller bonnets, etc. are more likely to kill but driving style and enforcement play as much a part in road safety



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,420 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i wonder did she pick the headline, or a subeditor?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Sounds like a well measured and balanced article for once!



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