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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,284 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    The handbags in here is something else.

    The most depressing thing about it is that from the age and talent profile, we've potentially got another 13 years of this ****.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Also, who the 10 was ranks fairly far down the list of the potential issues Ireland had this season.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I don't think either of them get disproportionate hatred on here; there's plenty of non-good-faith posts to go around from all angles these days, alas. Which is why I think portraying one side as squeaky-clean and the other as purveyors of "horsesh*t" is just plain wrong.

    I also don't understand why you think anyone is obligated to "call out" anyone. Or why you need to use such emotive language; what kind of reaction do you expect?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 722 ✭✭✭darkened_scrum


    I don't think Prendergast is as good a defender as Crowley, nor did I state that. The dogs in the street know it's an issue for Prendergast.

    But if one guy is meant to be this great defender, and one of the reasons for picking him over the other guy is his tackling/defence, and he then goes and misses 7 tackles in a game, it puts a fair old dent in the argument for picking him.

    It's like if Prendergast suddenly couldn't kick snow off a rope then similarly it would be a serious issue for the argument for selecting him, it's one of his USPs and one of the major reasons for picking him over Crowley.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Imagine Prendergast has an off day from the tee and someone posted this:

    Prendergast down for a 46% kick success. I thought his point of difference was his kicking?

    Would that be credible? Cos that’s exactly what you’re doing.

    If you had come in and said “Crowley with an unusually poor defensive performance this weekend, it’s normally his point of difference” I don’t think anyone would’ve had an issue.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 722 ✭✭✭darkened_scrum


    I'm sure you'll write a thousand word essay about how it's in fact totally different but here's you doing the exact same thing.

    Whatever about anything else, his first touch absolutely was an outstanding clearance kick. It was one of the best clearance kicks of the game. And I’d go as far as saying that every one of Crowley’s kicks from hand were better than all 3 of Prendergast’s kicks in the opening 10 minutes.

    And again, this is an area where, supposedly, Prendergast has the upper hand.

    Aside from the completely subjective judgement of how good/bad/indifferent the kicks were, Prendergast didn't have an off day, oh no, he "supposedly has the upper hand" on Crowley when it comes to his kicking from hand.

    So to answer your question, you certainly seem to think it's credible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    The full context being that was a discussion comparing Crowley and Prendergast in that individual game. I literally said as much earlier in the thread,:

    To be fair, I was responding to a request to compare them exclusively on this game.

    And engaged in the discussion and gave plenty of reasoning throughout the whole thread. For example:

    The place kicking, the stats bear that out. Tho Prendergast showed character to respond and convert the most difficult of his 3.

    The kicking from hand is much more qualitative, naturally. But, especially early on, even Prendergast's long exit kicking looked aimless, and allowed England territory and field position. He rarely hit grass, iirc (tho I’d have to watch it back). Crowley’s had one or 2 too long also, but contestables seemed much more… contestable. Bear in mind this is one area that it was seen as Prendergast outright having the upper hand on Crowley.

    That's the context. That's literally the opposite of the exact same thing. The exact same thing would've been posting a 2-liner like the following:

    Prendergast down for a 33% kick success. I thought his point of difference was his kicking?

    (Word count: 192, I'm disappointed with myself).



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Sure but it was one game. And he'll be far from the last player UBB make look a bit silly at time.

    No matter what the strengths of a player they will have the odd game where it goes to pot. I don't think it's either indicative of much or really a fair way to comment on it.

    Now in contrast I've completely changed my opinion on who is the stronger goal kicker.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,356 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Sooooooooooooo. Why did Ireland form drop during this Six Nations? Players all doing well following the conclusion of said competition. Coaching and tactics would be my assessment. Defence and Attack.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,129 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    I’d say it’s mixture of coaching and Leinster trying to play a different type of game, especially in defence which led to people not being quite as fluid and comfortable as previous years. Think Farrell off won’t have helped but actually think in the long run that may also be a good thing as the bubble has been burst and they can reset now in autumn.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Broadly this yeah. It took Leinster the guts of a season to get used to the system and even at that it's even a season and a half til we've seen the attack catch up.

    Of course there is nothing inherently unusual about running different systems at club and country level but I suspect the sheer volume of leinster players in the Ireland team complicate things slightly.

    We were also just changing playstyle quite a bit and sometimes it just doesn't work off the bat.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Personally I wouldn't be highlighting Ireland's attack in the 6Ns as a positive. For anyone involved. A few good moments but overall I thought it was pretty average.

    Agreed that the pack will be the winning and the losing of any game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,942 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Our attack was poor overall, but more from execution, rather than being outright abject. We generated entries and scoring opportunities, but were very inefficient converting them. Think to VdF cutting in vs England when he had acres of space between him and the line.

    I thought Prendergast played very well in the system, with how he created openings and gaps to put players through. His passing was excellent, in its accuracy and range. His kicking from hand was overall strong. He has incredible range, and is accurate with his line drives. As we've seen since then with Leinster, he's very capable of being a lynchpin for an effective attacking system. The game on Friday was one of his best to date, where he did a better job backing himself to take the gaps that the defense offered to him. Given his ability to delay passes to the last second, having that capacity will make his attacking game all the better, as defenses will have to account for the possibility of him running. That was a major (unjustified) criticism of him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    I don’t think I agree with that anymore, I mean just read the PR team of the week

    https://www.planetrugby.com/news/champions-cup-team-of-the-week-absolutely-immense-jordie-barrett-stars-while-englands-impudent-rising-star-delivers-mighty-second-half-performance


    Fair play for having the stones to do the right thing and name Prendergast at 10 but all they have to say about his performance is “he had an armchair ride”…it’s quite clear there is an agenda from a large section of fans/media that are doing their best to downplay any positive input Prendergast has but then exaggerate how bad he was when he wasn’t at is best, with the best example of this being the England game in the 6N.


    You honestly think of Fin/Marcus Smith played in that Leinster team and had the performance Prendergast had they would have kept their thoughts on his performance to “ah sure, he found a few gaps and kicked well”…bloody hell, they said more positive things about Fin in the “other mentions” part… no talk that Northampton got an armchair ride there of course conveniently…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 909 ✭✭✭johnh6767


    My point was merely that both 10’s, Sam & Crowley, are excellent prospects, neither are perfect, neither are shocking, and performance varies game to game week to week so no clear run away winner to the balanced / unbiased viewer. No drama, and good for Irish rugby as it makes them both improved athletes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    I agree with all that. My main issue which I’ve never understood is did Sam do something in a past life and is paying for his sins now, as the level of criticism he’s receiving from certain sections of the media/fans is so vile it’s almost like they feel personally offended if Sam plays well or receives any sort of positive feedback on his performances and will use any excuse possible to minimise how well he played…I mean reading this team, after all Sam did throughout the game if that was a fair and balanced review I would have liked to have thought they would have come up with something a lot better than “he shone with his kicks and in finding gaps”…after going on about his “armchair ride”.

    When you consider the level of bile that was dripping from the British media’s mouth anytime Marcus Smith did anything, from throwing a pass to tying his shoes, to see them now trying to tear down a player for being “overhyped” I find hilarious for the lack of self awareness present…irony is certainly not lost on them!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I don't doubt there is some vile stuff posted about Prendergast on social media etc. but this…

    10 Sam Prendergast (Leinster):

    He had an armchair ride with the forward dominance his pack delivered but he shone with kicks from hand and in finding gaps.

    …is hardly it, right?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Yeah I don't see anything wrong with that. I read that and it sounds like he had a good game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    I think you know as well as I do that this is just a microcosm of what’s been reported by the media in many quarters.


    Could that review be anymore vague and minimal…almost like “sh!t, we have to come up with something nice to say!” And even then have to throw in the “armchair ride” part at the beginning, back handed compliments more like it.

    How about talk about how great he was at releasing the backs and marching the forwards around? Kind of like how they reported on Mr Golden Boy in the honourable mentions section…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,675 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I didn't see the game. How did he do defensively?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    Made 6 out of his 9 tackles, pretty good I’d say!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,675 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    He definitely has a good game then because that has been his weakness.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Absolutely obsessed with some imaginary taunting by the 'British media'. Give it a rest. And look up 'bile' while you're at it.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,284 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    New update on the funding model for the IRFU, with the provinces now expected to find up to 40% (up from 30%) of the cost of a player, with the extra funding being used to pay for player pathway initiatives in Munster, Ulster and Connacht.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 627 ✭✭✭CONSI


    Lets not pat Humphries on the back too quickly on this, and it doesnt come in till 2026. Leinster have what 12 central contracts (and this isnt leinster bashing, they have the better players), average say 400k each. thats 4.8m, under the 30% rule they had to fund 1.4m themselves, this moves it to 1.9m, so 500k…thats one game moved to croke park for leinster, and thats only 166k per province, so not a silver bullet to make the other provinces competitive



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Made a few tackles, shirked a few, usual stuff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Is there a silver bullet to make the other provinces more competitive? Something obvious and immediate that everyone in every province will be delighted with? If so, you should put it in a proposal and said it to the IRFU immediately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,384 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Just to clarify two points, in case people don’t actually read the detail in the announcement.

    It won’t come in until the start of the 2026/2027 season,

    And it’s only for Nationally Contracted Players.

    Furthermore it will be in constant review each season along with a review into how effective their investments are across the board.

    This is a small rebalancing of a portion of the Central Contract budget that won’t hurt Leinster very much but will help the National team in the long run if it helps produce a few more players outside of Leinster.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,215 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    500k cost to Leinster is significant. That's Snyman and Barrett.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,712 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The devil will be in the detail. What will the pathway initiatives be? It certainly implies someone has come up with a better idea than the academies.



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