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Hamas strike on Israel

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    I've been around for years, watched the situation for years. Your response is the typical, only for Israel this or that would be possible.

    Palestine is the complete opposite of Israel, in the sense of, its not a united functioning democracy. Despite all its faults, and indeed it has many, in regard to security and defense of its identity, its a united country with one army, not factional armed groups vying for control. And like it or not, within itself a functioning democracy. Palestine as it stands isn't and indeed its a dysfunctional entity full of differing civil armed groups.

    Unless they can come to terms with themselves they will achieve nothing against Israel, cos again like it or not, Israel is going nowhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,380 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Palestine is the complete opposite of Israel, in the sense of, its not a united functioning democracy. 

    And why is that? Since it's inception, Israel has ensured the Palestinian people could not become a strong independent functioning democracy.

    Unless they can come to terms with themselves they will achieve nothing against Israel,

    This sentence is meaningless.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,423 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    The Israeli government wants a final solution that involves no Palestinian state



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    If you think that sentence is meaningless, then so be it. But you're wrong. Palestinians have to unite and become as one, then with a united front face Israel. They're incapable of that now, because they're too factional.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    Much the same as Palestinians want with Israel so.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,281 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Absolutely none of the above is in any way a logical response to what I posted. It's just a lot of words that illustrate very little, other than an attempt to place the blame fully on the victim whist letting the victimiser off the hook.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,423 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Interesting you state Palestinians yet I only mentioned the Israeli government



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,380 ✭✭✭Suckler


    I’m not wrong; it was meaningless.
    The whole “Palestinians need to get their act together” is a massively blinkered view with little basis in the reality of their situation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    A simple question about your knowledge of the past before or during Israeli statehood might answer your history lessons preaching. When was there ever a state of Palestine? I actually believe it should be granted recognition as its own state. Your blaming Israel for stopping something that never was. And of course Israel don't want it and will continue to everything in its power to make sure it doesn't happen. But if the Palestinians want it they need to unite politically is my point. Having various military factions doesn't help their cause.

    You and me can sit here forever talking about awful Israel, but at present, regardless of who you blame, or I blame, palestine can't even agree with itself about its governance. Hamas seized power in Gaza and the Palestinian authority in all its glory has let that situation fester and turn into what it is, in as much as Israel fuelled it because as you rightly say, it suits their narrative. Palestinians need to sort that and other things themselves. Shouting Israel isn't changing any of that. And the rocket firing and terrorist like actions is keeping Israel in a sense of right with themselves, and with their Allies too who are prepared to stand by and let whats happening now to continue happening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    I do, not because of anything other than I think of this whole thing as Israelis v Palestinians.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,380 ✭✭✭Suckler


    This is simply a convenient revision of history to paint one side as the cause of their own demise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    Palestine is the complete opposite of Israel, in the sense of, its not a united functioning democracy

    Are you seriously suggesting Israel is a "united functioning democracy"?

    I'm not aware of any other "united functioning democracy" on the planet where the Govt. is ignoring the will of the people, is headed up by an alleged War Criminal currently being prosecuted for corruption and whose previous minister for defence is also an alleged war criminal. Added to that, the State is currently subject to a case of Genocide before the ICJ.

    "a united functioning democracy"?

    I don't think so, by a long shot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    Reporting of how broken and corrupt the current Israeli Government is, continues. And from an ex-Mossad chief no less.

    Ex-Mossad chief Tamir Pardo said that the Israeli government has seven military front lines and one political one, whose objective is "changing the regime… The biggest threat to Israel is not Iran – but rather it is in-house, internal." Pardo added that Netanyahu's decision to promote the judicial coup prior to the war "was one of the factors that brought upon us October 7."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    You should tell them to tell their Government then. Or rise up and throw out the corruption and War Criminals.

    If the ICJ find that Israel committed Genocide, all Israelis will be tarred with that moniker because of what their Government did.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    Classic victim blaming. It has been a common theme - disgusting.

    Was listening to a US doctor in Gaza on RTE radio this evening describing the death of a 9 month old Palestinian baby boy.

    It has been posted previously that these deaths are as a result of "human shields" or "well, they voted for Hamas didn't they". Some have even glorified the actions of Israel - simply loving the F18s screaming over Gaza and dropping 2000lb bombs over heavily populated areas.

    I simply cannot understand what it is that allows a person justify the death of a 9 month old baby in any circumstances.

    Perhaps those that do can enlighten me?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,204 ✭✭✭political analyst


    By your logic, Operation Overlord shouldn't have happened because it led to the bombing of Caen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,204 ✭✭✭political analyst


    If the ICJ was going to find Israel guilty of genocide then it would've found Serbia guilty of genocide for what Milosevic did when he was in power.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,380 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Another complete false equivalence. To equate what is happening today to Caen in 1944 requires total wilful ignorance of both situations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    I'm not sure what the point of this post is?

    I'd be fairly sure the evidence presented by South Africa against Israel bears no resemblance to any other previous case.

    And criminal cases are determined by the evidence before the court - not precedent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,281 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    When was there ever a state of Palestine?

    That's not the point being made, and nowhere has anybody suggested such a thing either.

    Your blaming Israel for stopping something that never was.

    I suggest that you go back over what it was that I wrote because it's clear from that line that you didn't fully understand it the first time.

    But if the Palestinians want it they need to unite politically is my point.

    Israel won't let them. It's the very reason they bankrolled HAMAS in the first place. The Palestinian Authority were making too much headway in uniting the people of Palestine and pushing for statehood. Israel were dead set on doing everything the could to kill that.

    palestine can't even agree with itself about its governance.

    Palestine has been divided by Israeli interference for decades. You have a people that are split across an area and are completely controlled by an outside faction who are intent on keeping them under the boot. The Palestinians, as a people, are naturally discordant about who they are to look to for leadership and when you have an occupying power that further seeds that discordance because they don't want them to have any kind of unity, it's only inevitable that that unity becomes difficult to achieve.

    None of that eliminates the fact that the absolute major player in keeping a Palestinian state from becoming a reality is Israel. Not the Palestinians.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,204 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Israel hasn't done anything like what Milosevic and Karadzic did, i.e. Srebrenica. Furthermore, unlike Milosevic's Serbia, Israel is a democracy.

    Incidental killing of civilians in a war zone isn't even a war crime, let alone genocide. Otherwise, the air strikes aimed by the US and its allies against ISIS would be crimes because those strikes also caused civilian deaths.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    As I stated - criminal cases are not based on precedent. What anybody did in the past is utterly irrelevant.

    And you appear to have a complete misunderstanding of the definition of Genocide and War Crimes.

    Do you think Israel being a democracy means they cannot commit war crimes or genocide? The ICC and ICJ would undoubtedly correct that mistaken assumption.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,204 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Israel didn't fund Hamas.

    In its early years, Hamas wasn't regarded as a threat by Israel. Back then, Israel regarded Fatah as the greatest threat to Israel.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,281 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

    Israel was also warned about HAMAS 20 years ago.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas

    In an interview with Politico in 2023, former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that "In the last 15 years, Israel did everything to downgrade the Palestinian Authority and to boost Hamas." He continued saying "Gaza was on the brink of collapse because they had no resources, they had no money, and the PA refused to give Hamas any money. Bibi saved them. Bibi made a deal with Qatar and they started to move millions and millions of dollars to Gaza." At a Likud party conference in 2019, Benyamin Netanyahu said:

    "Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas ... This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."

    Prime Minister Netanyahu responded to the accusations of funding and strengthening Hamas by calling them "ridiculous".

    Gershon Hacohen, former commander of the 7th Armored Brigade and an associate of Benjamin Netanyahu, said in 2019 in an interview:

    “Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.”

    Bezalel Smotrich, a far-right lawmaker and finance minister under Netanyahu Government, called the Palestinian Authority a "burden" and Hamas an "asset".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,204 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Definition of a crime is not proof of a crime.

    The ICJ isn't a criminal court as the average person would understand it to be. After all, the ICJ ruled against the US in the case that Nicaragua took in the 1980s but nothing happened afterwards.

    Netanyahu & Gallant will never stand trial in the ICC. There probably will be a new government in power in Israel after next year's general election - thus convincing the ICC afterwards that Israel will have an independent inquiry into the war.

    Fatou Bensouda eventually left the ICC - and so will Karim Khan, especially given the allegations that have been made against him, and the successor might have a different view of the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    I'd go further and have posted frequently on all these - Israel fully deserves critisism from all sides - its treatment of Palestinians, of the Lebanese, of UN peacekeepers, including the Irish. They deserve critisism for the murder of journalists, medics and humanitarian aid workers.

    They also deserve criticism for their treatment of the hostages and their families - abandoned since day one plus the treatment of all Israelis who abhor what their government is doing.

    It's just convenient to be accused of "vilifying" Israel - just like it was convenient to call those criticising Israel as either "antsemitic" or "Hamas supporters".

    Convenient in as much as there is absolutely no other argument that justifies what Israel is doing. None. Just name calling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    Israel allowed, with full knowledge, the funding of Hamas by Qatar. Israel even built many of the tunnels in Gaza.

    Israel used Hamas to "divide and conquer" - classic tactic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,204 ✭✭✭political analyst


    That theory is up there will "The US government orchestrated 9/11".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,281 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭dmcdona


    You may have misunderstood - you appear to suggest that what Israel has done could not be Genocide because others have done a lot worse. And they are not democracies like Israel is.

    That indicates you misunderstand the definition of Genocide.

    Are you suggesting that when a prosecutor leaves the ICC, the cases go with them and/or their successor can simply discard them?

    As for the alleged war criminals in Israel never standing trial, they also said that about Duterte.

    But here's the thing - if you believe Netanyahu and Gallant have not committed war crimes, you should have no issue whatsoever with them attending The Hague and being fully exonerated.

    No idea what influence you think Israel holding any enquiry on the war will have on the ICC. They prosecute crimes perpetrated by individuals.



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