Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

I asked a simple yes/no question. You might answer that before I answer your follow-on question?

Do you think the attack against Israel by Hamas on Oct 7th was Genocide?

The post above doesn't explicitly answer it but I think your answer is "yes"?

I think from reading a few israeli opinion pieces that Netanyahu and his govt decision to wade back into gaza is very unpopular in Israel right now. Former hostages and their families, families of those still hostages and a large swathe of the general public are now firmly against the current military action in place. It does seem like Netanyahu is doing it mostly to preserve himself from his upcoming trial. The only good thing I see in it is that his political end at least will soon come about. I just hope that Israels public might shy away from such war hungry extremism in the future, given that they must surely realise that their actions in gaza has alienated their people world wide and tainted them all with being associated with the brutality their govt and defence forces have used. The number of innocent people, especially children ( who no one can argue are innocent) killed and left in torturous depraved living conditions cannot in any way be lost or dismissed by any Israeli person with any spark of decency.

With the proviso, already mentioned, that I'm not a lawyer and the main arguments against it being a genocide (apart from "sure they deserved it") seems to be that Hamas does not have the legal status to be found guilty of committing genocide - something that other experts disagree about (eg a French lawyer representing the families of nine Israeli victims of the October 7 Hamas attacks filed a complaint at the International Criminal Court (ICC) accusing Hamas of genocide. They affirm that their legal team has verified the legitimacy of the "genocide" accusation in accordance with the law) - and that's just one example of many.

So on the whole, I think they probably did, from a legal position, and even if they "get off" on the technicality of not being a recognised state and/or not having signed up to the various conventions, in terms of the crime committed, it fulfils the criteria of genocide and of crimes against humanity.

But since I already said all that above, I don't know why you are unable to reply to the questions I asked. Or do you think I was claiming to be an international lawyer and was giving actual legal advice? Because if I had been, you'd have been been billed for it first! 😎

except to the extent that Hamas has not signed up to the Geneva Convention

Israel doesn't extend the protections of the geneva convention to the population of the occupied territories.

Who is going to freely give their opinion in the midst of a war. I have no doubt there is support for Hamas but it equally suits Israel apologists to frame it as there being overwhelming support and that Israeli actions are justified because they are all Hamas anyway. The hypocrisy is that if a another state went to war with Israel on the basis that the current Israeli government is a threat to the existence of Palestinians the very same people would be quick to object about collective punishment and a disproportionate response if it was Israeli civilians on the receiving end. They also wouldn't be as keen to remind people sure bad things happen in war and if war crimes are committed those guilty should be held to account. When we know very well if the ICJ rules against Israel they won't accept the judgement .

Various reasons for that, including the fact that Hamas murders anyone who criticises them. Also, the hostages recently released have testified that Hamas militia were taking the aid sent by UNRWA and eating it in front of them. It's highly likely that Hamas families are much better off, maybe even much safer, than those who are not part of the organisation.

On this "Gazans feel largely let down by the international response, and imo, rightly so" - what do you think Israel should have been "allowed" to do by the international community after October 7th?

Not what they shouldn't have done, but what would have been a reasonable response to those attacks?

That's a personal opinion: Israel claims that it does, by measures such as warning civilians to leave areas before fighting begins etc.

I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of how effective those are, just pointing out that your claim is speculative, unlike the fact that Hamas has refused to let a single hostage be seen by the Red Cross or other international organisation and has filmed its operatives raping and murdering civilians. They don't even deny it, unlike Israel. Hamas is proud of how badly it treats the hostages.

That's a whole other level of proof of criminality - yet there have been no street protests in Dublin calling for Hamas to "cease fire now".

In fact I only recall one instance of a supposedly pro-Palestine march anywhere where anyone did that - a single woman with a placard calling on Hamas to release the hostages, and she was basically set upon.

No problem answering your questions at all but I think the standard etiquette is to answer one question then you get to pose a follow up question.

So, like yourself, I'm not a lawyer and we're both in the same position that we are really just speculating. But given the sources you've posted, it certainly seems the lawyers believe a Genocide (or at least a War Crimes case) can be mounted against Hamas. I know an ICC arrest warrant was out for Dief but I don't know the detail of why more Hamas "leaders" were charged. Perhaps there was only enough evidence for Dief. Of course, you know well that the ICJ can only adjudicate on State disputes so that's out of the question for Hmas. The ICC can only prosecute individuals. So perhaps therein lies the issue - maybe only a state/organisation can be accused of Genocide - I doubt very much an individual can. And as you rightly point out, that would be an unfortunate "technicality".

However, regardless of that, what Hamas did on Oct 7th is abhorrent - if you (the royal you) wanted to call it Genocide, I'd have no issue with that as it certainly seems to tick most of the definition boxes. What they did would certainly amount to War Crimes. And justice should be meted out.

But for sure, if that is the case for Hamas, then it is certainly the case for Israel and as a State, of course the ICJ can (and is) hearing a case for Genocide against them. And the ICC have warrants out for Netanyahu and Gallant. Who knows, maybe Katz will be added to the list and others too. Maybe more Hamas leaders also. That would certainly be justice being seen to be done.

I have no problem with anyone criticising or questioning Hamas. I certainly would not to like to live under Hamas Rule.

What I mean by Israeli apologists is those posters who won't accept any criticism of Israel; that no matter what they do its justified. For the record I am not including you in that as you have rightly condemned both sides.

@nacho libre

Who is going to freely give their opinion in the midst of a war.

It's WAY more sinister than that though:

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2025/02/20/bibas-hamas-youngest-hostages-returned-israel-ceasefire/77741136007/

I watched the handover of the Bibas children's bodies. There was what can only be described as a party atmosphere, with children playing and loud music blaring out over loudspeakers.

How can you expect children brought up like that to be anything other than brainwashed into thinking violence against Jews, even 9 month old babies, is something to be celebrated?

And for those who do think otherwise - and who are unwise enough to say so out loud - they can expect to be lynched by the unthinking mob that follows Hamas. Beating people to death for criticising Hamas was among the first things that began again with the most recent ceasefire.

I queried your stance on Hamas - not mine. I'd imagine it would be really odd for me to pose that question of myself. I clearly stated that I thought that's what your post was alluding to, but without a direct answer, I didn't want to assume that.

No it is unlikely to be deemed to be war crimes. Because there was no state of war between Israel and Gaza on Oct 7th.

And actually, yes, the War did commence on 7th October. A cursory Google search would confirm that for you.

And if Hamas did not commit war crimes, you might explain why the ICC issued an arrest warrant for Deif for War Crimes.

"Israeli governments have commonly taken the position that Israel is not bound by the Fourth Geneva Convention dealing with the responsibilities of occupying powers, because Jordanian and Egyptian control over the West Bank and Gaza prior to Israel's occupation in 1967 had been seen by the world community as illegitimate. Therefore, Israel argues, "these territories were not, prior to the occupation, under the sovereignty of any state, and could not, therefore, be considered `occupied territory' once Israel seized control."15 Instead, Israel takes the position that it will voluntarily abide by the "humanitarian provisions" of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Israel's position on the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention is not supported by the language of the Convention. The Fourth Geneva Convention applies to all civilians in a war or under occupation, defined as "Protected Persons" in Article 4 of the Convention, which reads:

• Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals.16"

https://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel/hebron6-04.htm

Indeed - it reminded me a lot of when the Israeli tour buses rocked up to the Gazan border so the occupants could see and hear the Genocide in full flow before retiring to the barbecue and disco area set up for their further enjoyment.

As for the Bibas family, Netanyahu attended an event where he waved around pictures of the dead family members. The Bibas family were disgusted at the crassness and disassociated themselves from Netanyahu.

The protections refer to "civilians" full stop, so I'd imagine that covers all sides.

However they died, they are two children killed because Hamas kidnapped them. Neither side seems to have any regard for children's lives, probably all lives are considered collateral damage in honesty.

I absolutely agree. Two children whose lives are precious and are worth no more or no less than the lives of tens of thousands of Gazan children killed because Israel blew them up.