Hamas strike on Israel

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123283985#Comment_123283985

Ireland frequently and consistently fought back against our conquerors. And for the most part suffered the consequences for having done so. That whole experience is why there is so much empathy in Ireland for the suffering the Palestinians continue to face. And as I said, more and more understanding for how they now look to stand up for themselves.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123283998#Comment_123283998

We generally kept the head down with the odd pocket of resistance but nothing like those HAMAS nutjobs. It's literally the reason we survived.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123284054#Comment_123284054

You're digging yourself further in to a hole with this argument.

It could be argued that the most violent and sustained period of resistance against the occupying force (the troubles) was what eventually brought about a pathway to the occupiers finally being off the entire island with the signing of the Good Friday Agreement.

And for the record, I didn't come to this argument equating Hamas with Irish Freedom fighters, I'm just responding to your reference to the Irish experience.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123283881#Comment_123283881

She seems to have changed her tune after complaining about being harassed and insulted by Israeli officals and having a private meeting recorded without her knowledge

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123284092#Comment_123284092

Yes, I read something about that. They sure know how to win friends.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123284081#Comment_123284081

I'm just calling it as it is. Israel have the west by the balls and they want an excuse to conquer what was their holy land. The Palestinians like all Arab nations want to conquer their holy lands as well. If the Gazans want to pull this off they'll need to play the long game and strike if Israel ever lose their western strangle hold.

HAMAS will fast track the end of Gaza forever if they keep this up if the plans not already set in motion. They should never have ruled Gaza as a dictatorship after winning the election or become an Iranian proxy.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123284081#Comment_123284081

John Hume said the exact opposite though. He - and many others - have always argued that the IRA harmed northern nationalists and that the gains of the civil rights movement were acquired despite the IRA not because of them.

Early on, even before the IRA had made their comeback, Hume advocated a non violent path towards a United Ireland: "(A) United Ireland, if it is to come, and if violence, rightly, is to be discounted, must come about by evolution, i.e. by the will of the Northern majority. It is clear that this is the only way in which a truly United Ireland (with the Northern Protestant integrated) can be achieved."

https://pureadmin.qub.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/328101268/Pre_Publication_Redefining_Partition.pdf

He never deviated from that belief. And I think he's a better source than you, TBF.

As for the idea that the GFA is a win for the IRA - no, it's defeat for them, as Brendan Hughes and others knew. That it was a win for the Northern Ireland population as a whole, and the nationalist community among them, is a different point altogether. But a United Ireland has not been the result of the GFA.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123278777#Comment_123278777

Israel never gave Hamas an opportunity to surrender or return the hostages on October 8th as you suggest. Israel was already bombing and killing children in Gaza before October 7th was out.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123285150#Comment_123285150

This is the strangest argument to make: what sort of "opportunity" to surrender should Israel have given them? Do you think if they'd been asked nicely on Oct 8th they might have said "Ah yeah you're right lads we got a bit carried away. We'll send them back now."?

Because if it's Israel's fault for not giving them the opportunity to hand them back, you might like to explain why 18 months hasn't been enough for the Nepali and Thai governments? After all, they still haven't had all their hostages given back - and they didn't bomb Gaza. Ever.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123285145#Comment_123285145

I've huge respect for John Hume, but he was speaking within a reality whereby armed retaliation had formed opinions and influenced decisions.

We'll never know for sure if he was right, what we do for sure is what happened and within that reality, violence was part of the path of evolution that he was talking about.

xhomelezz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123285145#Comment_123285145

I've never understood why any of this IRA and Irish independence stuff is being brought up in this thread. There's no comparison whatsoever to what's happening in a place of discussed conflict. This is not having a go at your post.

Sudden Valley

Ireland is brought up as in both the war of independence and the troubles involved an irregular force fighting a standing army. It doesnt mean that either the IRA in the 20's or the 60's should be compared with Hamas.

In other new Israel continues to act appallingly https://www.rte.ie/news/middle-east/2025/0321/1503305-gaza-israel/

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123285275#Comment_123285275

It's ridiculous. A number of posters seem unable to see the world except in terms of the Northern Ireland conflict. As most of them are not even from Northern Ireland, and barely understand either that conflict or the place itself, you can imagine how inaccurate that is likely to make their understanding of other conflicts.

Perhaps the funniest was when one poster on here called me a unionist and another one an IRA supporter within about 2 posts of each other and based on the same post from me!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123285295#Comment_123285295

Some important differences though that make it a stunningly stupid comparison. I won't list them all, but just from your own post above, Hamas was not an irregular force: they were, and are, the elected government of Gaza, with a police force, a judiciary system, health and education ministries etc. They had all the trappings of government, and were able to organise accordingly. The IRA were never able to do that.

What you really mean there is that Hamas are outclassed and outgunned by Israel, and that is true. But that doesn't make Hamas an "irregular force". When the united forces of FIVE Arab countries attacked tiny incipient Israel in 1948, that didn't make Tsahal an irregular force. And the fact that they beat all those states proves that being more powerful on paper does not necessarily equate to losing the battle. Just as all the equipment and the years of training the Afghan army got from the US didn't make them into a fighting force when push came to shove.

Sudden Valley

I would just agree not to live in the past and just condemn the war crimes of both hamas and the Israeli government in the present day. If either side supporters looks to an example in the past to justify present day war crimes then they have already lost the argument.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123285377#Comment_123285377

So do you agree that Oct 7th was a genocidal attack on Israeli citizens that meant that there was a current and ongoing (ie not historical) threat to its citizens which the Israeli government was duty-bound to respond to?

(Note that I am not saying that war crimes are ever justified - but that military action, even causing the deaths of innocent civilians, is not necessarily a war crime.)

Sudden Valley

I believe icc rulings on war crimes is legitimate so have little time for posters that support either party in this conflict. I believe both hamas and the Israeli government are genocidal threats to each other's people. Ironically only the PA is not.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123285435#Comment_123285435

When did the ICC rule that Israel has committed genocide?? Or even war crimes?

dmcdona

Threats of more illegal annexation (that the ICJ has already ruled on), the IDF are demolishing 180 homes in the West Bank so they get their armoured vehicles through, presumably so they can murder more Palestinians and Israel is always playing the victim.

Haaretz:

Defense Minister Israel Katz said that "if Hamas continues to refuse to release the hostages, it will lose more and more territory, which will become part of Israel." Katz added that he had instructed the IDF "to capture additional areas in Gaza, while evacuating the population, and to expand the security zones around Gaza for the protection of Israeli communities and IDF soldiers through permanent control of territory by Israel."

The IDF announced plans to demolish about 95 homes in the Jenin refugee camp and around 85 homes in the Al Ein refugee camp near the West Bank city of Nablus. The stated goal is to change the routes of roads inside the camps and widen them to allow access by armored vehicles.

"Netanyahu's late-night conspiracies and lies should be seen for what they are – a mirror of Israel's stance toward the world throughout the war: Never taking responsibility despite vast powers, always playing the victim and finding ways to blame everyone else."

David Issacharoff

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123285295#Comment_123285295

Some posters who are more lurkers these days were adamant that Israel had no plans to take over land in Gaza. Wrong again. They didn't even acknowledge the settlements in the West Bank. The Israelis aren't even trying to hide their intentions now and they have that idiot in the white house to back them.

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123285215#Comment_123285215

it was one of your pro Zionist fellow travellers who suggested it.
Come to think of it Israelis have a habit of shooting dead those who are surrendering, waving white flags etc. Even other Zionists.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123285807#Comment_123285807

This was my fear and first thoughts the Day HAMAS launched that vicious assault on civilians. And when Trump was elected it just reaffirmed it. Israel can now annex parts of Gaza and Trump will happily back it.

dmcdona

The argument that Gazans of today are responsible for voting in Hamas nearly 20 years ago or that they should "overthrow" Hamas is addressed as fraud in this opinion piece:

"The 'failure of Gazans to rebel' against Hamas is a key component of the argument that there are 'no innocents in Gaza,' which has become practically a rallying cry in Israel, of voices on the streets and studios and elected representatives.

The idea that Gazans could have ousted Hamas over the years is one of the most fraudulent themes in a war flooded with lies, and one that must be laid to waste"

Dahlia Scheindlin

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123285418#Comment_123285418

Do you think the attack against Israel by Hamas on Oct 7th was Genocide?

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123286019#Comment_123286019

Opinion pieces are just someones opinion.

Trying to disguise them as facts is a tad disingenuous one would think

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123286372#Comment_123286372

Agreed - that would be true if I hadn't added the bit at the end:

is addressed as fraud in this opinion piece

Perhaps you missed it? There was no disguise.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123286429#Comment_123286429

No, I didn't miss that, but I would question the value of publishing "opinion pieces' in these discussions.

It would appear to have the thread lurching into a flurry of 'whataboutery' postings which in my opinion don't add to the discussion.

My wording wasn't the best, you weren't disguising anything in fairness. I accept that.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123286026#Comment_123286026

Well, except to the extent that Hamas has not signed up to the Geneva Convention, would you like to tell me how it did not fulfil the criteria for crimes against humanity and genocide? Being a terrorist state does not mean you are not capable of committing crimes against humanity. North Korea certainly is.

So in practical terms, especially the right/duty for Israel to try to end the threat against its own civilians, it very clearly was a crime against humanity to which Israel is/was entitled to respond militarily.

The alternative would mean that if a country is sufficiently evil, its neighbours are not legally entitled to act against it even in response to direct attacks.

Article II​

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:​​

(a) Killing members of the group;​

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;​

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;​

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

​(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group​

Source: ​Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of​Genocide​https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreve...n and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.pdf

All but (e) were committed by hamas on or since Oct 7th - and (e) is only unfulfilled because the murdered children rather than raise them elsewhere.

Crimes against humanity are widespread or systematic attacks on the civilian population, irrespective of whether the people are nationals or non-nationals and irrespective of whether the attacks are committed in time of war or in time of peace. 

The attacks can for instance constitute murder, extermination, forced displacement, slavery, rape, torture and other inhumane acts. Crimes against humanity are essentially about the violation of common human rights and values.

Genocide refers to the coordinated and planned destruction of a group of people (as that "group" is defined by the perpetrators). While genocide is almost always accompanied by mass killing, this crime is an attempt to destroy the group, not necessarily to murder every member of that group.

http://www.un.org/en/holocaustremembrance/EWG_Holocaust_and_Other_Genocides.pdf

Ghazi Hamad, of Hamas’s political bureau was explicit about their intent in an interview.

“Israel is a country that has no place on our land,” Hamad said in an interview with Lebanese TV channel LBC on October 24, which was translated and published Wednesday by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI). “We must remove it because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation. We are not ashamed to say this.”

In the interview, Hamad said that Israel’s existence is “illogical” and that it must be wiped off all “Palestinian lands,” a term the terror group uses to mean the West Bank, Gaza and Israel, minus the Golan Heights.

When asked whether this meant the complete annihilation of Israel, Hamas replied: “Yes, of course.”

“We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do it twice and three times. The Al-Aqsa Deluge [the name Hamas gave its October 7 onslaught] is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth,” Hamad continued. “Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs.”

https://Twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1719662664090075199

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123286631#Comment_123286631

I asked a simple yes/no question. You might answer that before I answer your follow-on question?

Do you think the attack against Israel by Hamas on Oct 7th was Genocide?

The post above doesn't explicitly answer it but I think your answer is "yes"?

dmcdona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123286520#Comment_123286520

The opinion piece is by Dahlia Scheindlin - a Tel-Aviv based American-Israeli political consultant, pollster, and journalist. So her opinion would carry significant weight. But as you say, its an opinion and it is not dressed up as anything else. I am sure there are contrary opinions - if anyone wishes to post them, they are more than welcome to further inform the debate. There have been some very good contributions in that regard.

But for balance, I have posted quotes from the likes of Netanyahu, Isaac Herzog and Ben-Gvir for example.

Such opinions and quotes certainly do add to the discussion in my opinion - they provide information for readers to make informed decisions. Or, for readers to simply ignore. No-one is forced to read or respond.

If posts use such information to go on a flurry of "whataboutery", that's out of my control.

Bishop of hope

I think from reading a few israeli opinion pieces that Netanyahu and his govt decision to wade back into gaza is very unpopular in Israel right now. Former hostages and their families, families of those still hostages and a large swathe of the general public are now firmly against the current military action in place. It does seem like Netanyahu is doing it mostly to preserve himself from his upcoming trial. The only good thing I see in it is that his political end at least will soon come about. I just hope that Israels public might shy away from such war hungry extremism in the future, given that they must surely realise that their actions in gaza has alienated their people world wide and tainted them all with being associated with the brutality their govt and defence forces have used. The number of innocent people, especially children ( who no one can argue are innocent) killed and left in torturous depraved living conditions cannot in any way be lost or dismissed by any Israeli person with any spark of decency.