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Trolley numbers down significantly on Paddys weekend - the fix was rostering...

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭hamburgham


    Yes and one of the fundamental problems is the staff’s resistance to change.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,781 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    "They supercharged the hospital"

    What does this even mean?

    Do you believe everyone working the weekend we're on overtime or working more than their usual hours in a week? I will wager that is not the case.

    It'll be easy enough to prove. If the numbers rise after a few weeks, we'll know it was because there's weekend backlogs being created again, that they have to deal with on Mon, Tues, Wed etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,812 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    …burn out rates in the care sector are amongst the highest rates, if not the highest rates, compared to all other sectors, this is one of the main reasons for resistances to changes amongst its workers, they know this, theyve experienced it themselves, theyve watched their co-workers experience it, this is largely due to the prolonged psychological stresses induced from their working environment, they actually need far more down time, holiday time, compared to all other sectors, by providing them with this increased paid leave, everyone would benefit!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,590 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    I know exactly what 5/7 is. My point is there aren't enough front line staff (be that nurses/doctors/consultants) to staff the entirety of our hospital system to the extent that is required. It's a fairly simple suggestion that more front line staff are required to work these roles if you want the level of service that may have been delivered last weekend in one hospital……….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,590 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    And my point is, to provide that level of cover you need more frontline staff…….



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    You clearly dont know what 5-7 is when you are talking about people working 365 days a year.

    If your point was there needs to be more staff then it was an incredibly poorly worded point.

    I would say more beds are what is needed. Someone, anyone on a trolley after being triaged for more than 20 minutes should be the headline. People left in corridors for days has just become the norm. That article, there were only 300 or whatever figure it was, is still ridiculous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Butson


    Where there are unions, there are problems.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,590 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    You were the one making the suggestion that the hospitals aren't open 365 days a year………..

    Beds are part of the problem, no doubt, but without enough frontline staff nothing moves/decisions get delayed etc etc. you can't roster staff if they aren't there and that's why all of the legal requirements around working time etc are all very important.

    As I said earlier, Junior doctors and perhaps may more, work significant shifts as things stand, which is very worrying for such a key job………..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,590 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    I didn't think we were arguing but fair enough………



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    Reading back over your previous points, I think we are actually arguing on the same side, but some of your wording was very confusing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,425 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Beds are only a piece of furniture. The difference between having 50 people waiting on a trolley not being seen and waiting on a bed not being seen is a bit more comfort.

    We currently have empty step down beds and empty rooms that beds could be put in but we can't use them because we don't have the staff. Trolleys are piled up around the A&E nursing stations because you cant just put them in unoccupied rooms.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,569 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    Unless every weekend is Paddy's day or Christmas week then it is sustainable. Many businesses around the country have all hands on deck a few days of the year. Or even for a few weeks depending on the industry.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,425 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    In UHL every week is Christmas or Paddy's day.

    The trolley crisis in UHL is 365 days a year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,590 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    I don't think unions would be against hiring more front line staff, doctors and consultants?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,812 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    …resulting in overall better pay and conditions, of which you want in order to have a functioning health care system, without which would lead to an even more dysfunctional one, in the form of over worked workers, and generally much worse outcomes from patience!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,590 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    I may have have picked you up wrong alright - apologies.

    My point - more frontline staff required to roster for 24/07/365. There needs to be some thought put into why so many people end up in a and e over the weekend in the first instance (lack of proper health care in the community maybe) and enhancing the A and E environment specificilly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    That is ludicrous logic.

    Trolleys are piled up around the A&E nursing stations because you cant just put them in unoccupied rooms.

    I would argue there are lots of people you can put in an unoccupied room. Which hospital do you work in?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭channelsurfer2


    one query i would have is what happens on the 2 days that the Consultants now get off having worked the two days at the weekend? surely the figures will suffer then or do they employ 20% more admin and nurses/Consultants to work these extra long weekends for cover over 365 days.

    I doubt the HSE has actually factored in this but headline looks good for one bank holiday at least.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 22,858 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    I was in 2 hospitals this year for a long spell, one abroad and then transferred to Ireland. Our hospitals are worse than 3rd world.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,425 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    You cannot put people in an unoccupied room. By room I don't mean a little private room or cubicle in a ward. That is a monitored location within the ward.

    But you can't just open up a big room, stick beds in and call it a ward with no one to monitor the patients.

    Also in a ward you need a certain number of nurses per patient. So sometimes in a step down ward it might be a 20 bed ward but you are only allowed use 15 beds



  • Administrators Posts: 55,807 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    It might have no impact on those 2 days as the workload remains the same it's just the staffing level is more accurately reflecting when the workload is arriving into the hospital.

    Before hand, consultants coming in on a Monday morning were dealing with the backlog of people who had come over the weekend. So therefore Monday and Tuesday for example were busy dealing with Saturday / Sunday / Monday / Tuesday patients. This is where the people on trolleys comes from.

    In the new model, consultants coming in on Monday are dealing with Monday patients, cause the Saturday and Sunday ones are already dealt with by the consultants that worked on Saturday and Sunday.

    Therefore, you need fewer consultants on Monday as they aren't dealing with a backlog.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have found our problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,425 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985




  • Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    OK, are you going to staff the theatres with rostered staff and not On-Call staff, to keep this pipeline moving?

    In which case we need a load more theatre nurses and anaesthetic nurses, radiographers, ICU/High Dependancy beds and staff, along with regular ward spaces/staff. CUH is already at threat of rolling theatre closures due to staffing

    Everything is possible but we need to get more hospitals built and staffed to a functioning level (hint: Part of that will mean breaking nurses out of the pay deal and increasing their pay to facilitate an attractiveness to college students. It's an open market and we are losing them to more attractive locations)

    Consultants coming in at the weekend will help but without the downstream facilities and staff it's just putting a finger in the dam



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,272 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    We spend a substantial amount of money on the health service especially when you add in Health insurance money.

    Of course rostering is a significant factor. The other significant issue us triaging. Tge reason A&E gets clogged up is many people are send to AE for minor injuries or complaints that could be treated elsewhere. The only first way into hospital is through A&E. You need an X-Ray for a sprained wrist, off to A&E, you get concussion in a game of Rugby or Football off to A&E, you need an intravenous antibiotic off to A&E, the list is endless. Probably 70% of people in A&E do not need to be there. Then you have bed blockers an older person who has no children who takes substantially longer to be discharged. People going in for an intravenous antibiotics who could be treated elsewhere.

    GP's should be triaging more. However making sure that consultants are available o er weekends to triage patients is a definite help. If 30% can be discharge wuthin 4-5 hours or send to lower level facilities then you are managing your workload better. Instead of having equipment not used from Friday to Monday will make a difference. Instead of having a que for MRI's or X-Rays Monday using up staff Monday and Tuesday you have staff on the weekend actually doing productive work.

    No consultant will be sitting around if he is rostered, he will manage trere workload. But more importantly Nurses and other staff are not held up by clinical decisions they should be making

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Saint Mary's Urgent Care Unit (in Cork) is fantastic for things like sports injuries, keeping them out of the actual ED

    But… Staffing downstream of consultants will be a bottle neck. If you want 7 day consultant you need 7 day support staff and not at a Weekend/On-Call level.

    Full, rostered, and staffed rota. Now I don't know about you but if my job unilaterally decides that I am working a 7 day rota, I am going on strike (especially without actually hiring more staff to cover current shortfalls). If we want staff to cover weekends, like this (and I agree by the way) we will need to cover that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,486 ✭✭✭✭Tom Mann Centuria


    Spot on, it would require hundreds and hundreds of new staff to cover everywhere (outside of wards) 7 days a week.

    Oh well, give me an easy life and a peaceful death.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,425 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Triage has nothing to do with the trolley crisis though. You are not on a trolley until after triage and you don't see a consultant until after triage either.

    Hopefully things like the Laya clinics will help with the concussion/x-ray people but there is little or no services outside of A&E after 5/7pm so I'm not sure where this "70%" is gonna go.

    I'm not sure it's still the case that you can't get and x-ray or MRI on the weekend. Last time I was with a family member in A&E we got both done at 3am.



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  • Administrators Posts: 55,807 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I was only saying that having consultants work weekends does not automatically mean that you are therefore short staffed during the week.



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