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Trolley numbers down significantly on Paddys weekend - the fix was rostering...

  • 19-03-2025 04:53PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,998 ✭✭✭


    Article below

    Surely it couldn't have been that simple? Rosters?
    All this time it's been rosters? - I can't believe it

    Jennifer Carroll MacNeill hasn't even been in the job 2 months and has already made a massive impact (remains to be seen if it's a sustained impact)

    If this is the case, it begs the question what were Stephen Donnelly
    , Simon Harris
    , Leo Varadkar
    , James Reilly doing? Did they even try?

    I wouldn't be a Fine Gael at all, fan but Ms MacNeill is defo one to keep an eye on.

    Beaumont had no patients on trolleys this weekend…. that's nuts

    Hospitals avoid trolley chaos over St Patrick’s weekend after changes to staff rosters

    Hospitals avoided a surge in patients on trolleys after St Patrick’s weekend following a move to roster more senior consultants and essential staff, but 40 patients were still waiting a day for a bed yesterday morning.

    Overall, there were 230 patients on trolleys either in emergency departments or on wards yesterday morning, with another 352 emergency patients across the hospitals in surge facilities.

    Forty patients were waiting more than 24 hours for a bed, 23 of whom were in University Hospital Limerick (UHL).

    This compared with 617 patients on trolleys after the St Brigid’s holiday weekend last month, with 745 people in surge capacity and 208 waiting over 24 hours.

    HSE chief Bernard Gloster and Health Minister Jennifer Carroll MacNeill ordered hospitals to have senior doctors and other essential staff rostered for the St Patrick’s weekend to ensure patient flow as the HSE steps up its drive for a five-over-seven working week for key staff.

    Mr Gloster previously told the Irish Independent: “The only way the health service can respond to the kind of demand we are seeing is to function later in the evening and in to Saturday, if not the whole weekend.”

    Ms Carroll MacNeill said she wanted to see more consultants on site rather than on call.

    A breakdown of patients waiting in emergency departments yesterday morning showed some hospitals, such as Beaumont in Dublin or Portlaoise and Tullamore, had no patients on a trolley.

    The busiest included Cork University Hospital, Our Lady of Lourdes, Drogheda, St Vincent’s Hospital, Dublin, Wexford University Hospital and Letterkenny University Hospital, Donegal, but overall, emergency department trolley numbers did not breach 16 in any of the hospitals.

    UHL had just three patients on trolleys in its emergency department, with 36 on trolleys in wards.

    Commenting on the figures, the minister said: “The number of patients waiting on emergency department trolleys at 8am over this bank holiday weekend was down 54pc compared to the St Patrick’s bank holiday weekend in 2024. This was despite attendances being at the same level as this time last year.

    “This period also saw discharges from acute hospitals increase by 10pc. Of particular note was the increase in discharges on Saturday and Sunday, with an increase of 179 patients discharged compared to the same period in 2024.”

    Meanwhile, the minister is reviewing an interim briefing report from the Health Information and Quality Authority, which is examining whether the mid-west should get a second emergency department to relieve overcrowding in UHL.



«134

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭SuperBowserWorld


    Wow. Incredible.

    "If this is the case, it begs the question what were Stephen Donnelly, Simon Harris, Leo Varadkar, James Reilly doing?"

    Answer: basking in the glory of being a minister and wondering if they left the iron on.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This is the key paragraph

    HSE chief Bernard Gloster and Health Minister Jennifer Carroll MacNeill ordered hospitals to have senior doctors and other essential staff rostered for the St Patrick’s weekend to ensure patient flow as the HSE steps up its drive for a five-over-seven working week for key staff.

    So is this new roster agreed with unions etc or was it a once off ?

    Notice the line "the HSE steps up its drive for a five-over-seven working week for key staff.".

    Is that achievable based on current agreements or has it yet to be fully agreed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    Surely it couldn't have been that simple? Rosters?

    All this time it's been rosters? - I can't believe it

    On the one hand, I am dubious myself. On the other hand, it's pretty much obvious that if you don't have consultants working on a weekend then come Monday morning you will have a back log. And if you have a big back log, you may not get through it all come the next weekend, and so it just gets worse and worse.

    So yes, it seems ridiculous that no-one thought of going this route until now, and does beg the question what were previous MoH doing?

    Overall, there were 230 patients on trolleys either in emergency departments or on wards yesterday morning, with another 352 emergency patients across the hospitals in surge facilities.

    All that said, those numbers are not super great either. An improvement yes but a long way to go. I look forward to the day when the headline is Number of people on trolleys last night: 1.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭hamburgham


    I think O’Donnell pushed through the contracts which mean they can be made work at the weekends. It was always glaringly obvious it was due to staff leave. Every single New Year, after the hospitals being effectively closed for two weeks, the papers and unions would be screaming about trollies. Phil Ni Hucky or whatever she’s called has been strangely silent today.

    Another interesting figure would be nurses absenteeism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭hamburgham


    O’Donnell was actually a really good Minister for Health. He brought in management metrics and really drilled down through the numbers so both high and poorly performing hospitals could be identified. Jennifer looks like she could be good as well. Just shows, it is private sector performance management analysis which is needed. When you think of it, Varadker and Harris were both useless, can’t think of one achievement, as was that James fella who was also a doctor.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,417 ✭✭✭Tefral


    The surgical hub were Donnellys baby too and they are coming out of the ground now also.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,425 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Basically it seems Gloster dragged everyone in for a high profile weekend. It's not sustainable in the long run unless we expect everyone to work 365 days a year.

    Also doctors are being put under pressure to discharge which is dangerous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭poppers


    if its a case of a new roster sorting out A+E trolleys then the Health unions should be dagged ove the coals, they have argued for years that this would have no effect on numbes and that no paitent were being kept in hospital longer than nessessary



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    Basically it seems Gloster dragged everyone in for a high profile weekend. It's not sustainable in the long run unless we expect everyone to work 365 days a year.

    Plenty of other places work 365 days a year. If you want to be guaranteed to work 9 to 5 and get bank holidays off, go work in a bank. Actually, I used to work in a bank and my shift was Sunday to Thursday, so even banks aren't guaranteed to be Monday to Friday nowadays.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭hamburgham


    Yes, not FF at all but thought it was a shame he lost his seat. Was very capable. He hasn’t got any credit for the changes he brought about. He certainly started to turn the ship. He really drilled down on the problems in the Limerick hospital and was making life quite uncomfortable for the responsible individuals there.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,905 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    We've been hearing for years that it's lack of consultants at the weekend that leads to backlogs at weekends as patients can't be discharged.

    Interesting to see if the unions agree to a five seven work roster. It's them that have prevented any progress.



  • Posts: 8,532 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Doctors, nurses and hospital management would have been aware of what the issues were. The entire HSE is a scam from top to bottom.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Bits_n_Bobs


    Chain of command has been:

    Minister → dept of health → hse→ hospital board → "clinician led hospital" aka consultants double jobbing between private and public

    To be fair to donnelly, he clarified the bit where the rubber hits the ground with the new consultants contract. I remain mystified as to roles /responsibilities from the minister down. But I guess that's the point of the structure... :(



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,425 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    No you don't understand. I mean every worker worked every day with no days off.

    There simply isn't enough doctors in places like UHL to keep this "new roster" going.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,781 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    ?

    They're still working the same amount of hours, it just now includes Saturday and Sunday. That's what 5 over 7 means. You work 5 days out of seven.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,905 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    If it worked over Paddy's weekend it's definitely worth a try.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,240 ✭✭✭standardg60


    First thing a newly qualified relative told me was don't get sick on a weekend.

    Pretty obvious the majority of incidents will occur at the weekend so not prioritising staff levels at that time was always ridiculous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,064 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Yet the nurses union are collecting data on numbers on trolleys and pointing out the problems.

    No, but if it is shown to work then it does demonstrate a way forward and a justification for a particular number of staff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,543 ✭✭✭JVince


    There was a lot less excessive drinking at the weekend.

    Cheltenham took the sting out as well as most needing to be in work yesterday.

    My local sent staff home as it was way quieter than normal.

    Even the daily mail couldn't find photos of "crazy drunks on Paddy's day" for a sensationalist headline - that alone tells you how quiet it was on the alcohol front



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,592 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    I have maintained that history will be kind to Stephen Donnelly.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭hamburgham


    It’s a pity the nurses union doesn’t also report absenteeism. Would be very interesting. Nurses make a fortune doing agency work…to cover nurses’ absenteeism. Another open secret.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭tarvis


    A report on radio today said a surgeon was not on duty for the weekend because his elective surgical list was cancelled - no surgery so no pre op patients admitted on Sunday so more free beds - apparently - smoke and mirrors stuff.

    The fact is we have insufficient beds to cope with the population increase since 2000 - not enough beds is not enough beds.

    Blaming an unwillingness to work in front line staff is why our health workers have been voting with their passports for years now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 212 ✭✭Enter Username Here


    Surely it couldn't have been that simple? Rosters?
    All this time it's been rosters? - I can't believe it

    It's not that simple, and you are right not to believe it. This seems like some sort of marketing push for her more than anything else.

    Anybody that has ever been in one of the hospitals that suffer from those issues knows that nothing has been fixed, and definitely not for the long run. IMO it is a pretty weird attempt at a massive claim.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,425 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I agree with 5/7 but that doesn't seem to be what is happening. This was people brought in on time off to cover a PR exercise. They basically overloaded with staff which isn't sustainable. They also just moved trolleys to other corridors of the hospital so technically you were not on an A&E trolley any more.

    Consultants not working weekends was nuts and needs to be addressed but I don't buy what this article is telling me.

    If it does lead to more staff that's great but the people up top are saying there will not be more staff.

    The only fix for the trolley crisis is more beds which means more staff. The trolley crisis isn't a weekend problem so while this will bring Saturday and Sunday down to weekday levels which is good we will still have a trolley crisis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,781 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    That's up to you if you don't believe it. If it was brought in as a PR exercise, it worked. It showed that reorganizing staff so they're available over the weekend, works.

    Do you believe everyone extra over the weekend was on overtime, or doing more than their usual weekly hours?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,425 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Couldn't say for definite because it's only from what I hear from people who work there. But what they say sounds more plausible than this. They supercharged the hospital for the weekend including pulling from other areas affecting clinics (the clinic bit I do know definitely happened). Beds were moved around to mask numbers and discharges were "encouraged".

    If it's a simple reorganization of staff towards the weekend why does UHL have a trolley crisis Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday ?

    The trolley crisis was never a weekend only problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,590 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    The hospital is obviously open 365 days a year (as many other places are) but no staff anywhere in the developed world are working 365 days a year. There are legal requirements about working time hours and I'd question whether doctors or junior doctors are working within those limits due to the amount of hours per week they are working.
    The answer is obviously more front line nurses, doctors and consultants to better staff the 24/07/365 requirements of a hostpital.

    Working in an A and E department has to be one of the most stressful environments to work in currently - I'd say staff sick leave is massive in this area due to stress never mind the higher chances of picking up an illness.

    I don't think people have issues working non-standard shifts in general, we just don't have enough of them to do it in such an environment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


     but no staff anywhere in the developed world are working 365 days a year. 

    FFS! Nobody was suggesting they should or would be. "legal requirements blah blah". Cop yourself on, no-one was saying that. What people are saying is there should be 365, 24 hours a day cover.

    I mentioned I worked in a bank on Sundays. It wasn't all day on Sunday it was for 8 hours and then someone took over. I took over from someone else.

    You are right, A&E is a very stressful environment, so having an 8-hour, five days a week roster should be perfectly fine. Thinking people dont need treatment after 7pm, or at 2pm on a saturday is the wrong thinking though.

    Intel works on 4 days on, 3 days off 12 hour shifts, and it runs 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year. It doesn't stop because the senior guy is having his afternoon off.

    It's not that simple, and you are right not to believe it. This seems like some sort of marketing push for her more than anything else.

    Anybody that has ever been in one of the hospitals that suffer from those issues knows that nothing has been fixed, and definitely not for the long run. IMO it is a pretty weird attempt at a massive claim.

    It does feel a bit like Helen McEntee's wandering down Talbot Street with her detachment of security and then announcing Dublin is perfectly safe. Cherry picking "not terrible numbers" and announcing it is a success.

    Anybody that has ever been in one of the hospitals that suffer from those issues knows that nothing has been fixed, and definitely not for the long run. IMO it is a pretty weird attempt at a massive claim.

    I was in a hospital for a night recently. On a trolley. Several doctors ran their phone across my eyes. Not because they have an advanced diagnosis app. Because they dont have penlight torches to check the eyes reaction to seeing light. They were using the torch on their phone.

    Having a penlight torch is not a "must have" in an A&E department, but it would not bankrupt the nation to have them available in A&E departments around the country. It kind of makes you think, if they are skimping on stuff like this, what else are they skimping on?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭TokTik


    You don’t understand what 5/7 is. It means you work 5 days out of seven. 5/5 is Monday to Friday. Where I work, all doctors and nurses have 5/7 contracts. They don’t work 365 days a year.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,812 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    hahahaha, relax folks, its not a roistering problem, theres far more fundamental problems with our health system, these issues have not been solved, go about your lives…..



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