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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,477 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    Edit : mistake



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,906 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    14 - 2

    That's the reason there are more Leinster players on the Ireland team than Munster.

    Pure and simple, Leinster have better players.

    Nothing to do with discrimination, persecution complexes or whatever.

    Why people think the famous leinster die-hards Andy Farrell, Paul o connell, Simon easterby, Andrew goodman and John Fogarty are out to get Munster is beyond comprehension.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 334 ✭✭Billy_the_Kid
    Master


    Everybody including Leinster fans want the other Provinces to be producing International quality players but it is just not happening. But its up to them to sort it out. The central contracts are going to the best players.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,388 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    If the central contracts are supposed to discourage players from leaving, why are they given to the players who are with the best team, getting the best wages, the best chance of silverware (theoretically) and playing international rugby?

    These lads should have the least desire to leave the country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,746 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I'm sorry but the little forgotten about province in the west of Ireland is producing international players. We have Aki, Bealham and Hansen there and a host of players on the periphery.

    Our little province with about a fifth of the population of Leinster is doing a great job.



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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,388 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    'producing' is debatable, but Connacht is punching above its weight. Can we hope to Cathal Forde or Matthew Devine or Ben Murphy capped this year?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 334 ✭✭Billy_the_Kid
    Master


    I fully agree. I want them to produce more! The IRFU should give them everything they need to do it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 334 ✭✭Billy_the_Kid
    Master


    ..if the IRFU decided to have minimum 3 central contracts per province I would support it

    Because it is the best players who get huge offers from French and English teams.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 727 ✭✭✭darkened_scrum


    Asked innocently, would you get out of it. Went looking for for something to be outraged over, and shockingly, you found it.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,303 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Is it too optimistic to think that Farrell has a better command of the mental preparation side of things than Easterby

    I think this is too optimistic.

    You are right, we haven't suddenly gone from great to rubbish. We have absolutely been on a downward trend for at least a year now. The performances this 6N are not out of kilter with what we saw last year and in the Autumn, and Farrell was around for both of those. We are far from rubbish now, but as we have seen, we are also a lot more beatable than we have been in recent years. In hindsight, the Wales game this year was not an example of us being unlucky with cards, it was an example of how the standard has fallen.

    People forget that we somewhat fell over the line in the last 6N with a fairly crap last 2 games against England and Scotland. We were poor in the Autumn Internationals, NZ did a job on us, we were poor against Aus and Argentina really should have beaten us.

    I don't believe the issue is mental preparation. The issue is a mix of an aging team and other teams have figured us out.

    If we do not change how we play these results will 100% continue. Farrell's job now is to build his next Ireland team, cause this one is done.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭Packrat


    I go to as many as I can. Didn't get to any of the 6 nations this year but did last.

    I attend about 50% of Munster home games.

    Am I allowed an opinion now without abuse or am I still unworthy?

    You actually sound more like a Republic of Ireland supporter yourself.... take that how you will.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,477 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    I'm not dismissing your opinion and you might well be correct, but you are forgetting a win in the world champions back yard in the midst of this supposed slump.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,303 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Yes, but again, a last second drop goal put a bit of a shine over what was an unspectacular tour from our point of view. We did not play particularly well in SA.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,292 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    It's not just freshing playing talent we need.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,477 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    Thats a pretty extreme glass half empty takeaway from the SA tour imo



  • Administrators Posts: 56,303 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    It's not really when you look at it in the context of what came before and afterward. I'm not judging it in isolation.

    Sure, if Ireland had played really well last 6N, really well in the AIs and really well in the 2025 6N it would be pessimistic to suggest they were poor in SA.

    But we had some very iffy showings in 2024 6N, pretty average in the AIs and again pretty average in this 6N I don't think it's pessimistic to call it a poor enough showing, despite the last second drop goal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,746 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    We are producing a lot of talent. I suppose you don't want to give Connacht any credit for taking the unwanted Cian Prendergast and turning him into a potential future Ireland starter?

    Darragh Murray, Shayne Bolton, Jack Aungier, Sean Jansen all played for the Ireland A team against England along with a potential future superstar, that's 21 year old centre Hugh Gavin

    At the same time Prendergast, Murphy, Blade and Forde were in the Ireland 36.

    And as you are well aware Bealham, Aki and Hansen all part of the 23.

    There's a lot of young men there and I'd expect at worst that three of them will break through and become starters for Ireland.

    We have a great academy right now. I'm trying to get an 18 year old hooker considered for it at the moment. I think he's a very special talent but I'm not qualified enough to make decisions as to how good he is.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,303 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Correct, we need some new coaches.

    Goodman and O'Connell at the least should be feeling the pressure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,061 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    At the same time, if the TMO wasn't so abysmal in the 1st test, we likely win that series 2-0. I don't think we were good mind. The WC team would've taken SA to the cleaners, likewise the NZ team that showed up in the following Nov. We're not that team anymore unfortunately. We need to evolve, but that shouldn't mean the players brain dump all the good things we had going for us. No reason for our passing and accuracy to fall off of a cliff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭El Vino


    not aware of any contradiction, coaches value cohesion, any Leinster player brings that through familiarity. That cohesion has brought us a long way but comes unstuck at world cups as other teams have months together. It is hard for Ahern, Coombs, Forde, Izzy etc get reps needed as you almost have to retire from this team to get off it.

    the comment you can't expect our international coaches to come up with there own game plan was slightly tongue in cheek, I'm not very impressed with current coaching group and I think we tapped into Lancaster's Leinster for a few years with a few difference makers.



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  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,906 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    most aspects of our play have been on a downward trajectory.

    While the lineouts stats in this competition look pretty good, the majority were simply thrown to 2 where we should be winning anyway. This neutralised our power plays which was very evident. Apart from the last game, did our maul threaten any other team??

    while goodman should rightly be under pressure, im willing to give him another 12 months to sort it out. Remember how many here were calling for Mike Catts head after his first year?? and then he turned our attack into probably the best systematic rugby that has ever been played.

    apart for this however, our biggest issues have been in defense. Brainless penalties lead to unnecessary pressure.

    Last season we conceded 60 points, with 7 tries conceded. We ended up winning the competition on 20 points

    This season we conceded 117 points, with 14 tries conceded. We end up on 19 points.

    Defense wins championships and we failed miserably at this this year. That IMHO is the singular biggest disappointment in this years championship. Now we can put some of that down to Easterby being head coach for the season, and maybe being light on his defensive duties (after all, time is a zero sum game) but perhaps greater is the "Farrell effect" in defense coaching, which is his forte.

    Interesting we only scored 2 less tries this year compared to last year (17 to 19)

    Post edited by sydthebeat on


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,388 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Is it though? I know we don't necessarily hear about all the offers that go around but Crowley apparently got a 600k offer from Leicester. Frisch got 350k from Toulon. I don't think central contracts pay this much and it's not just cash keeping players in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    There was people calling for Farrell’s head before the England win in the 2021 6N. He didn’t do too badly after that.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,906 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    the only place i actually heard a figure mentioned on Crowley was on the PSOM podcast where it was said that the figure was closer to £400K.

    the £600K figure was coming from the salary that Pollard was on, and no one was suggesting that Crowley would have been on the same wages.

    The figure being reportedly offered to crowley by the IRFU was €300K.

    i think the final figure will probably end up being around midway between €300k and £400k, due to the benefits of playing in ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,008 ✭✭✭DBK1


    I get it very hard to believe that someone who invests that much time, money and effort into going to that many matches could have the opinion you do on the subject. It’s an opinion you might expect to hear from the sunshine supporters but not someone that actually understands the game of rugby.

    What do you or the lads in the pub you were talking to want/need as a solution? Just to clarify I’m asking this as a genuine question too.

    Like if the better players are in a particular province then what do you expect the IRFU to do? Instruct Andy Farrell to pick a minimum number of players from each province regardless of quality? It hardly needs explaining why that won’t work.

    Maybe share around central contracts with an equal number in each province but then better players without one may leave to play abroad and the national team suffers while players not good enough to play on the national team are on central contracts.

    Force players to move from one province to another that maybe don’t want to just to make it look like everything is equal? But then would your mates in the pub be happy to support a Leinster player that’s playing for Munster without being fully dedicated to them as he’s there not by his own choice?

    Apart from the other provinces producing better players which would be by no means a quick fix, what other options do you think are available to solve this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,061 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    while goodman should rightly be under pressure, im willing to give him another 12 months to sort it out. Remember how many here were calling for Mike Catts head after his first year?? and then he turned our attack into probably the best systematic rugby that has ever been played.

    I would hope this may be the case, but Goodman's time with Leinster doesn't suggest it.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,906 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    dunno…….

    Leinster, with Goodman as attacks coach, scored 151 points in the last 4 knock out games of the 23 HC cup (38 points on average) against teams of the calibre of LAR, Toulouse, Ulster and Leicester.

    That included both finalists of that years Top 14, the reigning Premiership champions…. and Ulster.

    so he hasnt exactly been shown to have no clothes, but he should be under pressure, as i suggested.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,061 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    How much influence did he have vs Lancaster though? The inaccuracy this season was pretty glaring, which was always Lancaster's Hallmark.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,906 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    How much influence did he have vs Lancaster though?

    not sure i can answer that, or anyone else for that matter, or even if that can be answered.

    yes this season has been inaccurate, as was Catts first season, but, as has been suggested by others here already… inaccuracies are mostly mental issues, not systematic. Goodmans system didnt get JGP to fcuk the ball over lowes head into touch in Saturdays game, but you could argue his system created the 1v1 on lowes side, as it did many times during the comp.

    look, im no Goodman cheerleader, hes a step down from Catt, but im willing to give the guy some more time unless we have some world renowned attacks coach sitting at home at a loose end twiddling their thumbs.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,061 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    That's the issue though, we're 2 years out from the WC. If we recognize that systems take time to bed in, can we afford to waste another year on Goodman? Any replacement would be up against it trying to get players onboard prior to the tournament.



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