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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 846 ✭✭✭johnh6767


    STOP!! Neither 10 is the finished article. Crowley closer in the short term. Prendergast in the medium term. Give them time for Jesus sake. STOP FLAPPING



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,568 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Watched the game back this morning, I'm pretty convinced now that we missed Farrell more than we realise.

    Firstly, team selection was irrelevant. Swapping Prendergast for Crowley, or Baird for POM, or whatever, would have made no difference either yesterday or last week. The issues affected almost everyone and rearranging the deck chairs wouldn't have helped.

    Secondly, these guys have not all gone from (almost) the best team in the world to being rubbish, none of them are particularly old and we had a reasonably fit squad to pick from, France game aside.

    So what happened?

    Watching the game yesterday, it was obvious to me that the difference is in their heads, that we're not mentally switched on at all and we've lost the ability to dig out a performance.

    From yesterday - the brain-dead penalties from Ringrose and Beirne, Hansen having the ball in his hands and then taking his eye off it to gift them the second try, Crowley's pass behind Sheehan 10 metres out, JGP with his big loopy pass over Lowe's head into touch, all the easy line breaks for Italy in the first half, Murray staring at a loose ball instead of pouncing on it. We just weren't tuned in at all. (edit: Lowe was the honorable exception, he was razor sharp)

    And go back to the France game, what killed us? Their quick turnarounds every time we did something right. We scored a try, we instantly concede a penalty. We score a try, we instantly concede a try and get a man yellow-carded. The easy 'held-ups' over the line, McCarthy's YC, on and on. France were very good but we certainly helped them.

    The Wales game? We go down to 14 men and suddenly Wales look like an actual rugby team. We needed to find an extra gear to make up for the man down and instead we collapsed in on ourselves like a dying star. We get back to 15 and normal service resumes.

    Scotland and England games - we did all the hard work and then conceded a silly amount of points in the closing minutes, it might not have affected the results but it gave us a mountain to climb yesterday. Again, we were already in the dressing room while the game was still going on, our heads weren't in it at all.

    Key players just didn't seem to have their mojo at all, and all the focus on the 10 jersey is missing the wood for the trees IMO.

    Is it too optimistic to think that Farrell has a better command of the mental preparation side of things than Easterby, and the lack of focus and determination can be fixed relatively quickly when he comes back? I certainly hope so because something was definitely off this 6N.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    Think the killer in the Wales game was the poor Osborne pass to Ringrose. If he puts in a better pass and we score I think we ease away.

    Also think these long goodbye charades need to stop. Yesterday was embarrassing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,218 ✭✭✭OldRio


    As soon as this money grab Lions jolly ends the better for Irish Rugby.

    If no Irish player gets picked it would be a blessing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    I think our issues are similar, not nowhere near as bad, as in 2019. In that there are just far too many playing below their usual standards across the board.

    I don’t really buy this “aging” argument as I would argue most of the average performers recently have been players in their prime years.


    In regards to the age profile, I honestly think a few tweaks and you could really reduce the age without significantly weakening the side.


    Bring in

    Baird/Ahern/Izuchukwu etc for POM

    Osborne in for Aki/Henshaw

    McCarthy in for Ryan/Beirne

    With all those changes the XV drops down to 28.5 which is the perfect age profile imo.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,733 ✭✭✭All_in_Flynn


    Human nature, but a lot of over reactions I feel to the last few weeks.

    It was a messy tournament from an Irish perspective. Head coach on sabbatical, players coming to an end mixed with young and inexperienced players trying to find their footing at this level. We still played some great rugby in patches. We dismantled England (world cup champions in waiting 🙄) and should have won by more. Bullied Scotland and should have won by more.

    The France game got away from us. 20 mins with 14 men against them killed us and we played into their hands. Didn't kick half enough.

    I think and feel we will see a bit of an evolution in the team come the autumn series. The likes of Osborne are going to be making more squads and starting 15's at centre. Prendergast will have come on for the runs he's going to get for Leinster and we are going to see new blood in a number of key positions due to retirements.

    Just one thing to note from yesterday's game. I thought Furlong looked very powerful when he came on. Touch wood he's over his issues because he's a game changer for both club and country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,218 ✭✭✭OldRio


    'Should have' That's part of the problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    Furlong and Bealham would be a huge concern.

    Boyle and Clarkson need to be starting games in the summer.

    We have a bit of a problem at 9



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 846 ✭✭✭johnh6767


    9 - Casey is very capable & Gunne will fill the void. He is being blooded the way one should be, in the background



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 655 ✭✭✭darkened_scrum


    I was in the stadium and thought the ovations for the departing players were very nice myself.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    No problem with the fans in stadium

    The TV coverage constantly banging the drum about it and then the players talking about "sending the lads off on a high" for 3 weeks now.

    Scotland made a big song and dance abt Hoggs 100th cap a few years ago and we beat them out the gate with Healy at hooker and VDF throwing into lineouts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 26,856 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Piss poor performance to end a poor tournament. I can't put my finger on it but we're a team that looks poorly coached but we know with nearly the same coaches we've played much better.

    Italy lost two players through injury in the first half, the lost 3 players to cards and we struggled over the line to win the game.

    The tournament will probably centre around the outhalf position and Ireland might well be happy with that rather than focusing on the malaise that has crept into our squad.

    Every player can look back at areas where they were bad, poor handling, poor defence, etc.

    We're told by a few posters here that Lowe & Hansen are so valuable to Ireland but my God at times yesterday it looked like they were running through treacle.

    If an Italian was named as MotM there aren't many Irish players that could feel hard done by.

    After winning 4 from 5 games we have a PD of 18 points, France has a PD of 125, England (a poorly coached team) has a PD of 74

    On the way back in from the stadium and at bars last night everyone I met felt the same, we've regressed since winning the 6Ns last year and all agreed we've had a poor AI series followed by a poor 6Ns, in saying all that we've won a Triple Crown so aside from the financials it wasn't a disaster from a trophy pov.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,568 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The send-offs are utterly irrelevant to the performances and results.

    Like, if a player is asked in a media briefing about the POM and Murray retirements, what else is he going to say apart from "yeah, we'd love to give them a fitting send-off"?

    We gave BOD about fifty laps of honour in 2014 and still won the championship.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 736 ✭✭✭farmerval


    Apart from Osborne who the coaching staff seem reluctant to pick in his best position, none of the players you mention have really taken their opportunities when they arise.

    I think it's a sign of a management team that have run out of ideas when they consistently stick with the same players when they are no longer performing, the other piece being they will shuffle around half the team to keep the same core on the field rather than simply replace the player that is out like for like. Eddie O Sullivan in his latter days had a brilliant backline, but if one was missing everyone else was moved rather than simply swap out for the next best available.

    Our lineout has been poor since the world cup. No one knows how our scrum will perform on any given day. For a details based team, we've been shockingly casual this season. Where has our famed quick rucks gone to? even against France where they competed very little. The coaching team needs a big shake up.

    A lot of our senior players could do with a long hard look at how they are performing. Would any Irish Player make a team of the tournament? Dan Sheehan probably, maybe Lowe but who else? possibly Gibson Park? A few honorable mentions, Keenan consistently good, Doris maybe?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,218 ✭✭✭OldRio


    To be honest I think the Scrum has been good.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,629 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Same, in fact the crowd roar when POM was about to come on was probably the highlight of the match.

    Pretty much every Irish fan stuck around after to clap the team off at the end as well



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    McCarthy has also, this season was rough for him but he’ll learn.

    With POM we have similar issue as we had with Sexton, we don’t really want to move on from him. Obviously Sexton was still top class even at 37 but it felt like we were only capping other Fly Halves for the sake of it rather than actually finding a successor. The likes of Baird, Izuchukwu etc need a run in the team, yet we expect them to be perfect already otherwise we go back to POM…

    Like with Sexton I suspect POM’s replacement won’t be found until he’s retired and we have no choice but to look at other players.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    Prop would be the main concern for me and possibly Aki as he’s getting on but other than that I think transition will take care of itself.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,629 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Jack Conan is POMs direct and immediate replacement. We're very lucky to have a player of his calibre ready to slot in



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭randomname2005


    Mostly. Pom had the ability to win defensive lineouts that I don't think any other six we have can do as well.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    The issue is no other 6 is going grow as a player to be relied on in this regard if they are only being spoon-fed minutes here or there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,146 ✭✭✭randomname2005


    If we see Conan as the replacement then he has a lot of experience, between Ireland and the lions, on the internal stage. If we see one of Izzy, Baird, Cian p, ahead, coombs etc, then absolutely agree



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,566 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    He is. And he's playing great rugby at the moment. He looks huge this year, bursting out of the jersey. But he's 33 in July he's not a long term replacement. O mahony is 36 later this year so they're about 3 years apart.

    Conan is towards the end of his career and he'll do a great job for the next year or maybe two. But that's about it. JGP is already 33 so he's not a long term option either. Lowe is also 33 in July. Henshaw is 32 in June. Can ireland rely on 34-35 year old key players at the world cup in 2 years? I doubt it.

    The succession won't necessarily take care of itself. There could be a fallow period while the team refreshes and works out who takes the starting positions



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 708 ✭✭✭ShineyShiney


    My ratings across the tournament for the Irish players.

    Porter 6.5 solid and consistent at set piece but no longer a difference maker in the loose.

    Healy 8 completed his limited role with customary consistency. A legend.

    Kelliher 7 a nuts and bolts hooker always decent. We missed him when he got injured.

    Sheehan 7.5 delivered on the final day after a sub par ( for him) outing against france.

    McCarty 6.5 contributed well when called on, looks to have a lot of composure and professionalism, some bulking to be done.

    Bealham 8 couldn't have contributed more, a player most observers would have had in the only in an emergency category has stepped into the shoes of one of our best and never took a backwards step. Lions reward ?

    Clarkson 7 baby steps in this most challenging of positions, showing good promise.

    Furlong 10 how good was it to see this legend back in the front row yesterday. There's life in the old dog yet. Needs a run now for Leinster to remind everyone of the quality.

    Ryan 6 Never lacks for effort but needs to find a way to impact the big moments. A player of rare physical quality in Ireland but needs to go to AWJ school to learn to dominate.

    Beirne 7 always a threat when Beirne shines Ireland shine. A little of the glitter missing this time around.

    McCarty 6 Has the raw talent and bulk, a player for the future for sure but he is needed now. Seems to be playing the carrier role may be more suited to the enforcer.

    Pom 6 screaming at the dying of the light. Go well and thanks who now will get upset at the least of outrages.

    Jdvf 7 peerless in terms of effort, is the impact diminishing? We certainly hope not. Perhaps a Lions swansong?

    Doris 8 has the tools to be the Alpha needs more from those around him to allow him to swagger. Stands out nearly every game as a difference maker.

    Conan 8 seems to be benefiting from the break last season. Brings power and smarts and a very important player for us in the absence of pom going forward.

    Baird 6.5 Didn't shine in his 1 start but added plenty from the bench when given the call. There looks like there's more but let's see it.

    Jgp 7 quality with a few glimpses of dodgy decision making, not getting the armchair rise of the past from his pack. Less influential than last year.

    Murray 7 solid and reliable. No sentiment in his selections. Best of luck

    Prendergast 6 flashes of brilliance show a huge potential but basics win games. Needs to win the games not every moment, get the basics right and add the flash after. Looks diminished by the poor selection policies and the media coverage.

    Crowley 6 A partner to SP in the master class of how to mess up two good players with bad selection policies Solid if unspectacular nuts and bolts 10. Far more valuable than filling a utility role.

    Bundi 8 There's a bundi shaped hole coming at 12 and our centres don't look the same without his hard carrying and attitude. Lions trip.

    Henshaw 6.5 better outside bundi than inside Ringrose but a better 12 than 13. Figure that one out.

    Ringrose 6 Ireland's shooter but has he taken one shot too many. Struggling to put his stamp on things this year.

    Lowe 9 Makes something from nothing which has been very necessary in this Irish attack. Boot, power, attitude and skill. Badly missed when out.

    Mack 7.5 Plays so much rugby in every game. Prone to the odd error and lacks a little power but has the smarts to keep defenses in trouble. Chase and high ball work very important to Ireland.

    Nash 6.5 Good straightline winger unlikely to get many chances to shine and needs a few moments to happen for him. Will lose out to inferior players who have a point of difference if he doesn't.

    Keenan 8 Never a bad game, less influential in this edition of Ireland's attack but consistent and unchallenged.

    Osbourne 7.5 12, 15, 14 Has it all but where and instead of whom. My monies on 12 this summer. Perhaps a 12/13 combination with Henshaw.

    Coaching 4.5 Can't help feeling that the 10 situation has been exceptionally badly managed and rubbed off in the team. Prendergast with Crowley off the bench was the smart call with. Blunt attack, misfiring power plays, lowered skill level. Changes may be required in playing strategy and coaching personnel.

    Time to widen the pool and begin a serious rebuild.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,816 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    Have we had calls for Mack Hansen to be dropped after a defensive disasterclass yesterday?

    Or does that nonsense only apply to Prendergast?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    It will because there’s a decent chance quite a few of these players are still playing good rugby at 35…as we saw with NZL & SA in the WC final in 2023. The player already over the hill or are on the way to doing so are the main focus right now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭typhoony


    I thought he did reasonably well, his weaknesses don't seem to be as glaringly obvious as prendergasts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,556 ✭✭✭50HX


    Really disappointed that Baird hadn't stepped into the gap that's going to be left post POM.

    He has the physical size & I'd hoped he'd become the backrow lineout specialist...showed glimpses of it for club on his return but never grabbed it by the balls for Ireland



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Rugbyf565


    Starting to believe that Prendergast-haters/Crowley-defenders are like Trump supporters; their own delusions become their reality.

    IMG_5806.jpeg IMG_5807.jpeg


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 26,856 ✭✭✭✭phog


    If you search the internet looking to be outraged you'll certainly find it.

    I wonder do the mods really want the rest of us to follow your lead.



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