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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,621 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭Juventu4


    Completely forgot about him, but yes he's all the physical attributes to excel at test level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,985 ✭✭✭almostover


    This was the week to start James Ryan ahead of McCarthy. At least Ryan can do the basics of lock forward play without giving away brain dead penalties and getting sin binned.

    I'm beyond incensed about 'Big Joe'. He needs the hair dryer treatment. Bags of ability and physicality but his attitude, mentality and workrate are miles off. He's been bigged up by the media and has failed to deliver in a big way in the last 12 months.

    James Ryan is criminally underrated. Him and Beirne work so well together as a lock pairing because Ryan is willing to roll up his sleeves and melt into rucks and tackles for every game which allows Beirne to loiter for the poach. Big Joe is doing his best Neil Francis impression at ruck time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭Juventu4


    James Hume as well looked the real deal, not sure what happened to him.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,985 ✭✭✭almostover


    Ultimately what has happened him and other prospects in the 3 non Leinster provinces is that they are playing in poor teams who are being beaten regularly. It's hard to measure up to the competition in blue when your team is struggling.

    Munster and Ulster in particular are in the mire. Both former European champions and both are so far from that standard now it's frightening. Us down in Munster are lauding the signing of a new coach but I fear he's in for a rough ride because we don't have the players.

    Connacht historically have struggled and that's why their current performance looks favourable in comparison to the other 2 provinces. Munster and Ulster have fallen further back than Connacht have advanced.

    All the eggs are in one basket and it has paid off overall in the past 10 years with 6N success. We need four proud provinces though if we wish to go to the next level.

    Case in point is Jamie Osborne. Clearly a real prospect for the centre. But not a winger. But because the other 3 provinces are struggling to produce it appears to be the best option to select the man in blue well out of position.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,367 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Hume has suffered a few very bad injuries that have kept him out for a long time. Wouldn't be too hard on him for failing to stake a claim to an Ireland squad spot.

    But there appears to be issues at Ulster with regards to bringing through promising young players. Michael Lowry hasn't broken into Ireland squads either like many expected him to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    Osborne was one of the better players in the backline lads. Seriously the hyperbole is off the charts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,621 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Again, Ulster. I'm not saying that to **** on them, I think they've had some of the best backs in the country over the decade. The two who shall not be named, Stockdale, Marshall, Lowry, Baloucoune, Hume, McCloskey, Doak. If those lads had been at Leinster, I've little doubt they would have prospered. Criminal waste of talent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    That seems to be a thing with Ulster though. So many talented players who have been coming through there seem to get a lot of injuries.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭Packrat


    100% agreement.

    Big Joe appears to be a lazy work-shy oaf.

    Ryan and Beirne are one of the few settled units in this team which consistently works - because theyre both grafters (with grey matter).

    Giving Joe a central contract looks very very previous this evening.

    He should be out of the 23 for Italy and a half a dozen bench appearances away from starting after his performances in this tournament. Today was beyond appalling but entirely predictable given his previous similar if less blatant efforts.

    He needs to fix his workrate and stop with the stupid obvious penalties.

    Compare and contrast with POM who was utterly hateful abd horrible today if you were French but never attracted a second of ref attention in doing it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭Juventu4


    But again he's not a winger lacks that pace, he's the ideal 23 as he can cover multiple positions but he can be world class in fullback or centre. I know we had injuries but the fact that we still hadn't a proper winger brought in is telling.

    I'd like to see Bolton, prioritised as he's got that power, Tommy O'brien if he can stay fit is a serious option.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭johnh6767


    Unfair to select Sam so young at 10. Crowley more than able. Selectors got key decisions wrong and it cost us the 6N



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    I know he's not an out-and-out winger but people are using that as a stick to beat him with which is getting my back up.

    I fully agree with you about Tommy O'Brien. If he could stay fit I think he has all of the talent to be the real deal.

    I haven't seen much of Shane Bolton but from what I have seen, he definitely looks to have something about him. It will be be hard to replace Lowe though. Very few in world rugby has the raw strength he has.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,541 ✭✭✭✭phog


    In fairness, it was called out before a ball was kicked today, so it's not a reaction to the loss.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,662 ✭✭✭✭cson


    Today has been in the post for McCarthy.

    He had a strong start to his 18 caps, but when is the last time he put in a > 7/10 performance? You're probably going back 6 or 7 games at this point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,308 ✭✭✭✭Utopia Parkway


    His best game was probably the one early on in Marseille against France. Bit of a worry that he hasn't really reached that level since. I think we all expected him to improve but not sure he has.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭TomsOnTheRoof


    Yet he was given a CC regardless. 14 tackles over his last two games. Those are shocking numbers for a lock.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,621 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Agree with this. It absolutely blows my mind that Ryan isn't starting. McCarthy is so lacklustre for someone with his physical tools. His pathetic clear out attempt in the WC vs Whitelock is a perfectly encapsulation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭Juventu4


    Oh definitely not criticising Osborne, too me it's the coaches have to take the criticism and it's the same with Healy, O'Mahony selected, I'm not blaming the players but like FFS the coaches should be getting stick for not bringing in Boyle, Healy well past it. O,Mahony with age lacks that power for a blindside, this is where Izuchukwu should be giving the chance.

    In Ireland we seem to have a bad habit of failing to move on from players past their sell by date or even when they're injured and way off form, we love beating the dead horse.



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  • Posts: 146 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think the coaching team have a lot of thinking to do after that showing. The French demonstrated a clear blueprint for beating us yesterday - drag us into a power based forward game, slow our ball, and grind us down. They gave a lot of penalties away in the first 20 but it was all part of their strategy to make our forwards work too hard. People will point to similar games we won in the past but on average over multiple seasons we'll lose those games to bigger power teams.

    I normally avoid calling out specific players as being poor but I think Joe McCarthy deserves a mention this time. He didn't bring enough workrate while on the pitch and his yellow card was incredibly stupid. The maul try in the corner shortly after he went off was a direct result of the French being able to target our weakened pack. If he's struggling to impact the game with his size and power then James Ryan is twice the player in terms of skill and workrate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 593 ✭✭✭exiledawaynothere


    I think the coaching team have got a lot wrong this season. Objectively looking at this season, we had a few outstanding individual performances cover up poor tactics and poor selection decisions. JGP, Lowe, and Doris have been outstanding. This will go down as a missed opportunity.

    I am not revisiting the contentious player selections, but our media have a lot to answer for in bigging up players.

    I don’t think it has been mentioned much but I thought Keenan had a good game (I was worried he was off the boil a bit) and had a fantastic 50-22.

    Post edited by exiledawaynothere on


  • Posts: 146 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think the coaches have been in an awkward position with O'Mahony. He's been playing very well even if he's not quite as athletic as he was a few years ago.

    Izuchukwu is injured, has been covering the second row at Ulster recently, and frankly hasn't shown the form for international selection. The French back row would have eaten him up.

    Playing Beirne at six reduces his impact and the other options drift in and out of games. Baird has improved but he still doesn't do enough. Ahern makes too far many errors in games even at provincial level. Prendergast has dropped off a bit for us at Connacht this season and mustn't be showing quite enough in training.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 593 ✭✭✭exiledawaynothere


    it was a terrible selection by the management. They make their mind up about players and don’t look at what is happening on the field.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭Packrat


    Cian Healy or Peter O'Mahony didn't lose us the tournament. In fact O'Mahony played well over the minutes he's had and yesterday showed that we don't have another younger 6 of his ability, workrate or smarts. That's pretty damming - all the back rowers and a 35 year old PoM is still better and worth his starting place?

    The reason we persist with players for longer than other nations is the small pool of professionals we have to choose from. That's fairly obvious.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    It's this sort of mindset and attitude that is a plague on Irish rugby and a big reason why we find ourselves in positions like yesterday and continuously bowing out early at RWC's.

    POM is the best 6. However, this isn't because he's been very good, it's because he's the least likely to make mistakes none of his alternatives are given much of a chance to take the jersey off him. We give players like Baird & Izuchukwu 1 or 2 caps at a time and then as soon as a big game comes around or these players make 1 or 2 mistakes they are immediately ousted for the "safe pair of hands". Unfortunately, this selection policy is just ingrained in Irish rugby and until we grow a pair of balls and actually move on players like this at the right time we are going to continue to have disappointing days like yesterday. You give France, NZL, SA our player pool and POM isn't even in the squad, yet in Ireland he's starting and getting a big sendoff…and that right there is the big issue. Playing against nations like NZL, SA, FRA you need players that fit your system, players that make the opposition think twice while in defense. Players like POM are their dream, you know exactly what he'll throw at them and will never be more than a 7-8 out of 10 meaning they just need to do their job and they neutralize POM. Players like Baird, Izuchukwu, Ahern on the other hand will ask questions of them, it will make them think twice while in defense, which not only gives us another option, but it makes things easier for the other forwards. Having players like POM is fine when you are playing inferior nations but against the very best you need QUALITY…not "workhorses".

    The reason we persist with these players for so long is because we are still a mentally weak nation when it comes to rugby and too scared to make a big decision at the right time…players like POM, Murray, Healy, Herring don't fit the way we want to play yet we persist with them because we are worried about "disrespecting them" or backing younger players because they are prone to make more mistakes.

    What sums it all up for me is the uproar about the camera not showing POM going off…we are getting humped in our own back yard and our GS/Championship aspirations are in tatters. Yet POM not getting enough airtime going off…THAT'S the issue for some fans...

    In the end the selections of POM and Healy did cost us this tournament, not because of their performances, but because it showed up our mental fragility that we are too conservative to move on from older players who don't fit our system. The fact we still have people on mass defending the selection is concerning, just shows how ingrained this way of thinking is in Irish rugby culture and doesn't fill me with any confidence that we can solve this issue anytime soon.

    It's a blessing they are all retiring, probably the only way the management will ever move on from them.

    And again case in point the mentality of Irish rugby. Basically, just persist with POM because he's the least likely to f**k up, is exactly how we end up in situations like yesterday. We like to claim we've learned our lessons, and we have what it takes to win at the highest level, yet days like yesterday show that the mentality of "little old Ireland" is still ingrained in us and until is addressed sadly days like yesterday in big matches will be a common occurrence.

    And with all due respect, if Izuchukwu hasn't shown form for international selection, then neither has POM…but that's the other big issue, we aren't even consistent in our conservative selection. Its 1 rule for players like POM and another for the younger players.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭Packrat


    Thats an opinion. Mine differs.

    You would obviously have supported starting JMc yesterday and probably think JR should be sent out to grass? - I'm only following your own logic here...

    How did that work out?

    Baird has bren given umpteen chances and always manages to be invisible when not off the bench. Izuchukwu is injured and has been fairly meh when not.

    Who would you have started at 6 yesterday?

    Again - it wasn't PoM who lost us the championship yesterday. Why with trying to blame him or Healy and Murray who barely played?

    Would you have liked to have had MORE performances like those of McCarthy, SP, or Osborne yesterday?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,985 ✭✭✭almostover


    I take your point that we revert back to the trusted few quite quickly if a newcomer makes some mistakes.

    But SA and NZ do the same. And both select workhorse type players. NZ won the WC with a 36 year old workhorse named Brad Thorn in the 2nd row. And SA won it with a 36 year old Duane Vermuelen starting at no.8.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭CalmaftertheGav


    It's not, results like yesterday show that you are wrong.

    Well there are 2 things to touch on. The first being, unlike the 6 jersey, there is actually another quality option in his prime in the SR available in James Ryan. If its 36-year-old past it James Ryan then yes, I would support backing McCarthy.

    He hasn't been given umpteen chances, he's had 2 starts in 2 years. Well Izuchukwu has been invisible because he hasnt played…he's got 50 minutes of test rugby to his name…but it appears you've already made your mind up about him based on those 50 minutes so I see little point in giving him more game time.

    I mean, any of those 3 or even moving Beirne to 6 would have been preferable.

    Selecting the likes of POM, Healy, Murray has cost us the championship. These selections showed that we are still a mentally weak rugby nation unwilling to make the difficult, but right decision, to move on older players when they are past it and no longer fit our system.

    You can be critical of those players all you like but I can think of numerous occasions they tried to make something happens but were let down by their teammates….what did POM do? The only thing I remember from him was getting cleared out by Flament before the 2nd French try. Give me Osborne, McCarthy, Prendergast over anonymous pete anyday.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,042 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I am not revisiting the contentious player selections, but our media have a lot to answer for in bigging up players.

    One of the weirdest things driving the anti-Ireland sentiments on this board is the unshakeable conviction that the "media" influences selections. Absolutely bizarre.



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