Kilkenny GAA Thread

Most games have around 100 hand-passes in them, you can be sure that anywhere between 40-80 of them are throws, depending on the teams involved. Just as many breaches of the steps rule, if not more. At least 20-30 instances of pulling/dragging a game ignored.

80-150 frees ignored a game, and that's not including frees are actually given, which is usually in the 12-20 for scores from dead balls a game, never mind defensive frees.

Albeit the vast majority of these fouls not given, the steps and throws, are technical. But given there's that much technical fouls going on, can the sport be said to be of a higher quality than ever if technique is so poor? Or is it that it's not that the technique is poor, it's that steps and throw, it's a basis for attack/defence for most teams.

Use a few throws to get out of trouble in defence, play the ball forward, pop a few throws to create a shooting opportunity. It's systemic abuse of the rules by teams to create scoring chances, and anything systemic to break the rules is cheating.

Lads barging/charging because they now if they get bottled up they can just throw the ball to a teammate. That's a genuine tactic, we see it the whole time. That's a deliberate plan to break the rules, which is cheating.

And no-one uses a regulation hurl. Again, cheating. Simple as that, illegal equipment is cheating.

None of this means that hurling isn't massively entertaining, it is, some games are epic entertainment. Even the cheating is entertaining at times as it provides a furious flow to games. But it is cheating nonetheless. There's a big difference between sporting entertainment, which hurling most definitely is and quite frankly, some of the best sporting entertainment you will see anywhere any week of the year, and sporting integrity, which hurling clearly lacks due to the amount of rule breaking and systemic cheating going on.

No-one wants to see another 100 frees a game to what there already is, but any sport that has to ignore 100 or so frees a game, ignores a style of play that amounts to systemic cheating, and the use of illegal equipment, well that sport needs to have a look at itself.

Completely disagree on the Conor O'Donovan proposal.

It would have completely removed the throw from the sport, an action which has become a major problem in the sport and the associated actions with it.

On a practical level, it would have taken a rule that was ambiguous an open to interpretation based on the person, to a rule that was black and white, had no room for interpretation or ambiguity, which refs, players, managers, supporters, and pundits would know exactly what the standard is, and which could be implemented at all grades and ages in unison. Less ambiguity and interpretation is always a good thing in sport.

That O'Donovan proposal would have been the saving grace of the sport. The main reason it didn't pass is because proponents of the modern, risk-free possession based hurling saw a challenge to the excel sheet micro-managed way the game is being played, and were worried that without the ability to throw the ball around to keep possession, they'd have play a more open but less controllable style of hurling. And control freak managers and coaches don't want anything that might bring a bit of chaos and openness into a sport, because it takes control away from them. You know, the type of chaos and openness that a sport like hurling, at it's best, thrives on (think Kilkenny/Tipp games from 08-16).

It would have taken the ball out of the hand and put it back on the hurl. At the end of the day, the sport is called hurling, not handling.

And not to be flippant, but if lads can't adjust to playing the ball off the hurl or using fast hands to pass the ball without the constant throwing, or not be allowed to barge into opponents with the safety net of a throw, then it doesn't say much about their skill level.

The refs are in a no win situation, blow for the throwing and constant fouling that is going on in the game and they are accused of ruining the game and turning it into a frees contest, don't blow for it and the situation gets worse as teams will keep doing it as they are getting away with it. Refs are caught between a rock and a hard place as no matter what they do they will be criticised for it. Personally the way modern intercounty hurling is going it's getting harder watch and from our point of view I definitely think that's a contributing part to the poor attendances at our games, not the main reason by a long distance but it's part of the problem.

Throwing and to a lesser extent steps are a huge blight on the game at the moment. I don't think this needs any new rules to sort to be honest, just actual enforcement of the current rules consistently will solve it IMO.

Handpass rule….clear separation of ball and hand, if the player doesn't give clear separation of hand and ball then blow it….Yes refs will be giving away plenty of frees but it needs to be done. Teams won't be long copping on. It's so frustrating to watch on the TV now.

The rule is there…just enforce the bloody thing. I think spectators on the most part would be happy to see this cancer stamped out of the game

The biblical level of cheating is what is creating theentertaining spectacle and therefore the reason why the powers that be won’t do anything at present. In injury time in the Limerick/Clare match, Limerick moved the ball out of defence at lightning speed using 5 quick "handpasses"

Every one of them was illegal, three were quite blatantly clear throws. And the commentators marvelled at this slickness. And it is slick, but it is also illegal.

The game has been turned into a spectacularly fast ball game but a large part of that is down to the rules of the game (particularly relating to handpassing, steps, bas size, illegal puckouts, illegal free taking via stealing 5-7 meters balancing ball on stickbefore striking etc) being waived.

This may seem like a golden age for hurling but I feel we are fooling ourselves,much of it is an illusion, the rules waived and a game dumbed down to create a spectacle.

No idea. We should have. It was bad form by ourselves, a chance to make a fundamental change for the benefit of hurling and the skills of the game, and we opted out.

Can't figure it out why, most people I know can't stand the constant throwing and think it's brutal to watch.

I agree, clampdown starts and peeters out over the years….but no reason why the GAA can't make a campaign out of this before league starts and warn fans and players that the actual rule is going to enforced to it's literal meaning so they know well in advance. If they stick it out through the league the whole thing should sort itself. As I said earlier, the rule is there as needed, they just need to consistently enforce it

The idea that a handpass should come from the opposite hand as a solution is a non runner for me. Players need to have the opportunity in a tight situation to move the ball on legally. If a player is swarmed by 3/4 of the opposition they have no hope of moving the ball on if they have to switch hands to handpass.

The rule that is there is quite simple in wording and not rocket science. GAA need to encourage refs to use it correctly. Not giving players benefit of the doubt. If they feel there is no clear separation, then blow it. Guarantee you they'll be right 9/10 if they actually trust themselves.

Yeah I agree with this, no need for new rules at all , I understand the point randd1 is making re taking the ambiguity out of the refs decision but having to switch hand or pass off the hurl would definitely make it very difficult for a player under pressure to offload and would lead to more swarming and rucks.
The rule is already there, if the ref can’t see clear separation blow for a free, as said earlier lads wouldn’t be long about doing it properly if it was costing their team. It would have to be made clear to everybody at the start of the year that there was going to be a zero tolerance clampdown on this and the likes of Donal Og could whinge all they like and as said earlier if you need a slow motion replay to see a couple of millimetres of separation it’s a foul, if all the referees were doing it consistently there’s no doubt in my mind it would work.

Except that Donal Og only showed minimal separation after slowing it right down under a microscope.

Those handpasses weren't legal as there wasn't "A Clear Striking Action" ie what's in the rule. "Clear" being the important word.

Changing the rule to O'Donovans suggestion immediately cuts out the biggest blight on the game, which is throwing the ball. It's a no brainer. It might lead to more rucks initially while players adapt, but if it preserves the integrity of the game that's a very, very small price to pay.

As someone said, players are deliberately running into opponents now, knowing they probably won't break the tackle but comforted by the fact they can just throw the ball away if held up, and 90% of the time get away with. Its a central tactic of most teams now but it's still cheating plain and simple and it dumbs down the game. It's now a basketball/rugby type sport with most plays consisting of throws to off the shoulder runners to eventually set up a shooter in space.

It's pointless saying that refs should enforce the rules that are there, when it's next to impossible to do so with any consistent accuracy or success. It would lead to refs guessing, and result in dozens of extra and contested frees a game. It's not realistic and that's why refs just choose to ignore it.

I'd say the game would improve immeasurably, and obviously be far less contentious, if handpassing from the holding hand was outlawed and I'd say it's only a matter of time before it happens. Players would adapt and it would force coaches to rethink how they play. The reason players throw the ball is that it's central to the teams game plan (look at Limerick). They know it's illegal but they also know they'll get away with it, but they mainly do it as it's extremely difficult to give a proper, accurate, legal, 'clear release and strike' handpass in close quarters to runners coming at pace. The way players currently execute that pass is a cop out and the GAA is ignoring it.

It's a p1ss take at this stage

We are not in the High Court here, one refs interpretation of "Clear" may differ from that of another. Offside in soccer is a foul not cheating just like a handpass deemed illegal in hurling is a foul ,not cheating??

ye Alonzo very cynical but an accurate assessment. At a referee’s meeting one night they had video annalisis and Barry Kelly was asked why was it mostly KK he said they were the biggest culprits of the current infractions plus the fact they were televised most at that time being multiple all Ireland winners.

I’m well aware that we’re not in the high court but if you think being caught offside is the same as blatantly throwing the ball then I don’t know what to say to you.

One of the above absolutely is cheating and the other is not.

While I despise the amount steps players are taking in the game right now and how poorly its policed and the constant throwing of the ball etc

Some things in the game have stayed the same every team is crying out for ball winners in the half forward line catching clean possession is still king and as effective as ever

Every team has ball winners in there half back line and it’s still the launch pad for being successful like it was years ago

Even if you look at soccer the ball is worked out from the back the whole time but going long and goals from corners are making a comeback

As much as the game is now a running game the right ball to the edge of the square is still very effective and hard to defend as long as we don’t lose the skill of winning your own ball in the air the game will be ok

But similar to Gaelic football tweaks will have to be made going forward