Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

sydthebeat · 28-02-2025 12:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123218121#Comment_123218121

i think it was more our style of play when we had that back row. Schmidt tightened up at test level compared to club level, so the rampaging runs we'd see at club level from CJ and SOB weren't realised as much at test level because we became a 'look for contact, ruck and recycle' style team (in the main). SOBs body certainly was letting him down as well, poor lad couldn't string 3 games together without getting injured.

from a balance point of view its actually a very good mix. you have the lineout and rucking opinion at 6, you have a fetcher, speed and wider carrying threat at 7 and you have a heavy traffic carrying 8 who is a good mix of the other two. i dont think we played to our strengths there, but we were winning in the main, so it probably wasnt questioned as much as it should have been.

salmocab · 28-02-2025 12:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123218284#Comment_123218284

Yeah possibly so, it just didn’t seem to be where it should have been based on the personnel. On the balance thing not sure it’s as simple as one does this one that, think they need to work as a unit and it’s hard to quantify that.

ionadnapóca · 28-02-2025 12:48PM

Okay

Honorable mention for CJ here also. For that Grand Slam, Aus Tour and NZ wins he was heroic.

A great BR: POM, JvdF, CJ & Leavy.

vdF got injured, then Conan, & Jordi Murphy filled the gaps.

Another honorable mention - Willie Duggan.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport-columnists/arid-20457930.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/willie-duggan-a-ferocious-ruthless-rugby-great-1.3205244

For Petes Sake · 28-02-2025 03:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217287#Comment_123217287

Anyone who thinks Heaslip faltered towards the end of his career is someone who wants to believe it is true.

He was nominated for World Player of the Year just 3 months before his last ever game.

The bloke is thoroughly unlikeable, which rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way. However people used that to spread lies about him being sh*te.

Anyone who thinks Doris is at that level yet is suffering from recency bias. Heaslip was a truly sensational player. There's no reason to think Doris won't make it to that level though.

ionadnapóca · 28-02-2025 03:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219148#Comment_123219148

Hi POM,

Its ok. We all know you are still upset with Doris taking over as captain.

We also ALL agree with you about Heaslip (except the part where you say Doris is not at his level).

Enjoy your retirement.

We still love you.

sincerely,

Irish rugby supporters

p.s. Go Get Grand Slam No.3.

For Petes Sake · 28-02-2025 03:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219214#Comment_123219214

Doris isn't at Heaslip's level yet. Anyone who believes so simply does not remember how good Heaslip was.

No reason why Doris can't surpass that level, though.

El Vino · 28-02-2025 04:26PM

I've not been a fan of some of Heaslips post playing stuff but he was an incredible player. Dorris does a bit of everything at a very high level but people like Ferris, SOB and Wallace were elite level carriers, Wallace was probably our fastest ever back row, remember him chasing down wingers and rag dolling them more than once

Podge_irl · 28-02-2025 05:28PM

MOD: Some off-topic posts/replies deleted. Let's stick to rugby folks

sprucemoose · 28-02-2025 05:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123218121#Comment_123218121

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123218259#Comment_123218259

that backrow played together a total of 2 times. it generally was stander SOB heaslip or POM VDF/Leavy Stander after Heaslip retired, the POM SOB Stander backrow only played against england in 2017 and wales in 2019

AbusesToilets · 28-02-2025 05:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219254#Comment_123219254

Would disagree on that. I think Doris has a more complete game than Heaslip did. He does the grunt work, but has maintained an effective carrying game. I also think he's a better leader, he's frequently the best player on the pitch, in games full of star players

ionadnapóca · 28-02-2025 05:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219254#Comment_123219254

Personally I think Doris is the better all rounder compared to Heaslip.

I remember plenty though. The 2009-2016 Heaslip was exceptional.

It was crime against rugby that the 2011 RWC and 2012 6N sides were so limited by the coaching team.

-Murray, Sexton; Healy, Best, Ross; DOC, POC; Ferris, SOB, Heaslip and 18.D.Ryan 19.Leamy/POM 20. Reddan-

I'll leave you with my favorite stat about you:

Since your 6N debut in 2012 Ireland have won The Championship more often than not when you have started at least 4 of the games.

'24 Win The Championship - 4 Starts

'23 Win The Grand Slam - 4 Starts

'22 No win - 2 starts

'21 No win - 1 start

'20 No win - 2 starts

'19 No win - 5 starts (wheels coming off)

'18 Win The Grand Slam - 5 Starts

'17 No win - 1 start

'16 No win - 0 starts

'15 Win Championship - 4 Starts

'14 Win Championship - 4 Starts

'13 No win - 5 starts (wheels had come off)

'12 No win - 1 start

2025 2 Starts and Counting…..

sydthebeat · 28-02-2025 05:50PM

interesting blue sky thread about fly halves tackling in this years 6 nations competition:

https://bsky.app/profile/rugbykino.bsky.social/post/3ljawhatmn223

essentially the conclusion is:

So, looking at the flyhalves who are more notably first up tacklers (70-80%), Prendergast doesn't come out of this too badly. Big overall tackle attempt numbers, with a success rate in line with or better than those other 1st up tacklers (Russell, Jalibert).

The real outlier though, is Fin Smith. Similar tackle attempts to Prendergast, similarly likely to be the 1st up tackler, similar high low split, but with an 82.4% success rate. So, Prendergast definitely has a defensive benchmark to aspire to, but he's not quite at the bottom of the pile.

what the statsd really DO show however is the outright lies that some quarters are trying to make out that hes been hidden in defense and "protected" by other players.

He is certainly been targeted by the opposition, with him being the 1st tackler 72% of the time (3rd behind russell and Jailbert, who has much less minutes played) but Prendergast tackle success rate is better than Russells, who is most peoples choice for leading the lions at 10 this year.

ersatz · 28-02-2025 05:58PM

It's easy to forget how good Dan Leavy was considering he was forced to retire at 25. If he'd kept progressing god knows the level he would have reached. He really did have it all.

salmocab · 28-02-2025 06:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219517#Comment_123219517

Fair enough, memory is hazy enough on it, my memory of the backrow around them was when Stander moved to 8 from 6 after Heaslip’s retirement that it didn’t function as well in general.

P.Walnuts · 28-02-2025 06:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219626#Comment_123219626

Yup, he was elite. Such a pity.

AbusesToilets · 28-02-2025 06:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219668#Comment_123219668

Stander was a very limited player in comparison.

johnh6767 · 28-02-2025 11:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123219886#Comment_123219886

case of rewriting history on this one

AbusesToilets · 01-03-2025 12:22AM

Nah, he was a pretty straightforward player. Took ball, looked for contact

For Petes Sake · 01-03-2025 12:25AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123221239#Comment_123221239

Highly disagree. He might have been a bit more limited in attack than Heaslip but Stander was very good at the breakdown in attack and defence.

eagle eye · 01-03-2025 01:10AM

Both Heaslip and Stander were great players.

exiledawaynothere · 01-03-2025 12:59PM

reading the contest above, it comes to mind that we have produced (Stander was raw coming to Munster) some excellent, resilient and impactful number 8’s in the professional age - Conan, Doris, Heaslip, Stander and Foley. Going back we would have had Duggan, Goodall, Robinson but we have been well served over the last two decades. Something to celebrate.

Must love hardship · 01-03-2025 05:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123222163#Comment_123222163

Sorry now. You can't include Stander in that group of 8's "we" have produced. That's like saying we have produced 2 great wingers in lowe and hansen.

exiledawaynothere · 01-03-2025 06:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123222918#Comment_123222918

fair point. I did agonize over that for about 20 seconds. I just wanted to avoid provincial stuff around Lowe, JGP, Bealham, the Bronx Brawler, Aki etc…

The Macho Man · 01-03-2025 07:03PM

Just watched the Ulster match, each time I see McNabney he just gets better and better, some performance tonight. Really one to watch, would love to see him kick on beyond a development player and get into an Irish jersey.

bigmac86 · 02-03-2025 09:54AM

McNabney consistently plays well enough to be a starter although they might manage his minutes due to age. If he's good in the lineout I wonder if we'll see more of him at 6 next season with Augustus probably arriving as our starting 8. McCann/Timoney the utility backrow options

jacothelad · 02-03-2025 10:25AM

There is a nice interview with BOD in today's Independent. Actually worth a read. Although it seems research is not a priority. It claims Brian's hat trick against France all those years ago was the last time an Irish player did so in the 6 nations. Craig Gilroy did it in 15 minutes against Italy (and was dropped from the team. He must have scored the tries in the wrong way for Joe..😉) Gilroy also scored a hat trick against Fiji. Brian was the greatest player of the modern era, on a par with the wonder that was Mike Gibson of the previous generation. I hope to see another stellar player in green among the many who are already there.

bilston · 02-03-2025 01:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123224424#Comment_123224424

He was certainly jumping in the lineout last night. I think he will be a 6. With Augustus coming to Ulster and Ireland being well stacked at 8 with Doris and Conan with Gleeson and Culhane coming through then 6 makes more sense for him IMO. That said his off the back of the scrum last night in the 1st half was very impressive!

If he makes the summer tour and has a big season next year then he could become a a real live option in the next 12 months or so.