Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

almostover · 27-02-2025 08:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123216693#Comment_123216693

If you pick off current form it would be Curry at 6 and Morgan at 7. Morgan outplayed VdF last week. VdF has been decent but not at his WPotY level in this season. He was outplayed by Fraser McReight in the Autumn international game too. But a lot of rugby still to be played and injuries will play a part.

BTW I'm not for a second claiming that VdF isn't a top class backrow or Irelands best 7. He is most certainly both. But the other backrow options for the Lions are currently playing better IMO.

For Petes Sake · 27-02-2025 09:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123216799#Comment_123216799

I honestly don't know how anybody picks Jac Morgan at 7 ahead of Van Der Flier 'on form'.

Van der Flier was world player of the year only 2 years ago, and is playing at exactly that level at the moment.

VDF is rated as one of the best players in the world everywhere but in Ireland. It's genuinely baffling how much Irish rugby fans criminally under-rate him.

crossman47 · 27-02-2025 09:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123216749#Comment_123216749

For those of us who go further back, Slattery must be thereabouts.

AbusesToilets · 27-02-2025 09:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217123#Comment_123217123

I think you'd have to draw a line between the pro and amateur era. Just too big of a gulf imo

crossman47 · 27-02-2025 10:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217131#Comment_123217131

Maybe but class is class. I reckon the Welsh would still pick Gareth Edwards as their greatest scrum half.

typhoony · 27-02-2025 10:09PM

Heaslip always seems to be left out of the conversation when it comes to great Irish no.8's

sydthebeat · 27-02-2025 10:29PM

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZNdJx4uc9/

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DGi1cBBtzcV/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

But the kid never brings the ball to the line...

27-02-2025 10:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217167#Comment_123217167

A lot of supporters had a huge downer on Heaslip for the latter part of his career where he'd lost some pace. He spent years as a hybrid back row who did a lot of the dirty work that made our pack function while our two flankers had more of the big carries or turnovers. Doris will get similar criticism if the balance of our back row doesn't let him run with the ball.

He's also an incredibly dull and irritating pundit for someone who was such a well rounded player. That probably doesn't help his case.

sprucemoose · 27-02-2025 11:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217226#Comment_123217226

carrying the ball into contact one-handed like that isnt great though to be honest

Podge_irl · 27-02-2025 11:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217167#Comment_123217167

To be fair, I think he is easily the second best 8 we've ever had. Doris is just a whole different gravy.

AbusesToilets · 28-02-2025 12:09AM

Would Conan at his best be better than Heaslip at his peak? I think Conan has retained a more powerful carrying game than Heaslip tended to show, but Heaslip probably had the better ground game

ersatz · 28-02-2025 03:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217428#Comment_123217428

heaslip in his pomp was faster than Conan iirc, he was also very light on his feet for a player with the sort of power he had. Very deceptive.

CalmaftertheGav · 28-02-2025 04:02AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123216799#Comment_123216799

It isnt being picked on current form though, it's being picked in July. The day McReight or Morgan win WPOTY is the day they will be picked ahead of VDF. The Lions will basically be every key Irish player plus Itoje in the row, Curry at 6 and Tuipolotu at 12…after that it'll be a scramble to fill other positions like the Right Wing, which like I said previously will likely be filled by one of Kinghorn/Keenan in order to accomodate both.

The big mistake fans/media make that the coaches make is they get attached to the new shiny toy, and the best example is VDF. The fact of the matter is VDF has been top class for years now and right now his biggest issue is he's failing to live up to the high standards he set for himself. But at the end of the day he's a key player for a GS chasing side whereas Morgan is a key player for a side fighting to avoid the wooden spoon again, that's the difference in standards set for both players…the Lions are going to want winners in their side if they want to win the test series, not losers.

Former Former Former · 28-02-2025 07:32AM

Conan has never been half as good as Heaslip who is still our best ever #8, but I’d expect Doris to overtake him on his current trajectory.

CatInABox · 28-02-2025 08:53AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217311#Comment_123217311

Yeah, I think that the management are making the right call on sticking with SP so far, but I looked at that video and was more kinda horrified than impressed. The guy definitely brings the ball to the line, despite what some people say, but I wouldn't say that the coaches are massively impressed with that particular clip.

typhoony · 28-02-2025 08:59AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217590#Comment_123217590

In terms of honours Heaslip is currently ahead of Doris, Doris if he continues the form he's been showing in the next 2 years what he brings to the team on and off the pitch then he will easily be ahead of Heaslip as our best #8 in overall criteria. Do I think Doris is a better player than Heaslip then unambiguously yes.

Quin_Dub · 28-02-2025 09:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217734#Comment_123217734

Disagree completely.

You want your players to have confidence and to try things.

Had he tried to offload from his right hand , his arm would have been knocked and the ball would have gone to ground , if he'd held on and taken the ball to ground the momentum of the move would have been lost.

As the comment on the link says - A guy having that level of confidence at his age/experience level is amazing and the very very last thing you'd want to do as a Manager would be to try to coach that out of him by bollocking him for taking a risk and backing his skills.

Tommybojangles · 28-02-2025 09:56AM

I'm well used to Jamie Heaslip hate and there was a lot of it even when he was palying but i think mostly due to his personality which rubbed some people up the wrong way. But he was an absolutely amazing rugby player and Doris has a bit to go before he passes him out

phog · 28-02-2025 10:04AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217904#Comment_123217904

CJ (who incidentally wasn't rated by a core group of fans) in taking over the No8 jersey from Jamie was seamless enough. I don't think there was any drop off in quality

Tommybojangles · 28-02-2025 10:08AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217928#Comment_123217928

I don't think you can compare the 2. A bit like saying ringrose took over from BOD seamlessly (Jared Payne era was short) We were lucky to have someone so solid come through and fill the gap but as an all round player Stander wasn't close. Also Heaslips' prime was probablt 09-13/14ish so the drop off wasn't as pronounced a few years later when Stander took over

Bogwoppit · 28-02-2025 10:11AM

At this point in time I think Heaslip should be regarded as our best 8, I fully expect Doris to surpass him though.

When people question Heaslip I'm always reminded of Sean O Brien’s massive ruck clearout against France, it was a phenomenal clearout but most people don’t notice that O Brien wasn’t first to that breakdown.
Who was there first and held off 3 French players on his own?

https://youtu.be/XVUHFFUvjKk?si=k6scA_SJtGqHeJKt

phog · 28-02-2025 10:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217938#Comment_123217938

I suppose if your mind is set in stone then I won't change it now but I think you're understating CJ's game.

Quin_Dub · 28-02-2025 10:22AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217967#Comment_123217967

Stander was a very good player and Ireland were lucky to have him while he was there ,however he was never in the conversation for being the best in the world in his position while he was playing.

Heaslip was , as is Doris today.

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3 · 28-02-2025 10:52AM

https://imgur.com/XmQhheB

Outrageous.

Former Former Former · 28-02-2025 11:03AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217748#Comment_123217748

I fully expect Doris to go down as one of our greatest players, in any position, if he sustains his current level.

Heaslip is already in that class IMO. He was undisputed first choice for a decade which puts him in the POC/Sexton/BOD category, and he did it in the back row, where Ireland have always had the most depth.

Clegg · 28-02-2025 11:03AM

Outstanding improvisation from Prendergast.

And in fairness it's equally impressive from Porter to switch from being about to clear out a ruck to instead gathering the offload. You can see him hunch over to make a clear out. This all happened in a split second.

sydthebeat · 28-02-2025 11:04AM

CJ was the perfect no 8 for that period which was the tail end of schmidths era and saw us play a very heavy carry / possession / ruck based game. He was an on field leader and an inspiration when he played. I have a lot of love for CJ in green and he was absolutely adored in red.

On the world stage however he played in the era of Faletau at his best, Kieran Read, Parisse, Vunipola (for a short time), David Pocock and its hard to say that CJ was at that level.

As much as its a pointless subjective exercise, but the moment id have CJ just behind Heaslip and Doris as Irelands best no 8s of the pro era.

salmocab · 28-02-2025 11:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123218107#Comment_123218107

The backrow at the time of Stander POM and SOB I think it was, always seemed to me less than the sum of its parts. 3 great players but something wasn’t quite right with it, balance? Although that’s hard to quantify

almostover · 28-02-2025 11:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217517#Comment_123217517

I agree with a lot of what you've said. VdF has been top class for 4-5 seasons now. Also has been an important player in all Irish success under Farrell also. And yes you're right, he's still playing well, but the perception is that his form is a little off just because of the heights he reached in his WPotY season. I just think he's in a position where the competition is very strong for Lions selectio .

I would disagree about the winners and losers point though. Jac Morgan is putting in serious performances despite being in the poorest Welsh side since the late 1990s. Tom Curry is in an bang average English side and playing well despite that. VdF went toe to toe with them both in recent weeks and came off 2nd best in both cases IMO.

darkened_scrum · 28-02-2025 11:52AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123218121#Comment_123218121

Totally agree with this, that backrow never really lived up to billing. Maybe the injuries had caught up with SOB and he was past his peak. And personally I don't think Stander is in the same bracket as Heaslip or Doris.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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