Hamas strike on Israel - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

oh dear

There's a few nuns and a couple of sheep who would have attested to the IDF being a "bunch of bloodthirsty maniacs randomly prosecuting war for the craic" - except the IDF killed them of course. And the three surrendering Israelis. And the IDF also use human shields. Oh, and anally rape prisoners of war.

But you crack on there and keep extolling all their virtues.

So he mentioned the BBC. is that it? Wow.

Just post a credible news organisation doing an indepth review on the Lancet report and be done with it.

None exist though, so you can't. There should be hundreds readily available, unless it's just nonsense.

As someone who treasures facts and always back their claims up, you'll be happy to oblige.

I honestly don't know what to say that I haven't already said.

You posted the link yet here you are excoriating me… Bizarre.

And your sad little post was what exactly?

And why would you think that? Would it be anything to do with their ill-treatment by the Israelis?

Yeah, I didn't express that too well.

You have to seperate Beni the politician from beni the Wartime leader. Wartime leaders tend to be popular, but I have no doubt Beni's popularity will revert to the mean as they say now that things are in the wind down. There is a lot of opposition to the war anyway. I don't think he ever got like, 90% high support.

Israel has no intention of occupying Gaza. Trump is just playing a good hand there. By declaring his willingness to take over, he very cleveraly put the onus on the Arab nations to find a solution. There's an Arab nations summit very soon, and I expect that they will produce a coherent plan for the rebuild of Gaza.

As ever, however, the single biggest issue for Palestine as a country will be the Palestinians as a people. They simple have no credible partner that any government can work with.All plans always have to revolve around sidelinging Hamas, but I would almost guarantee it, if you had an election in the morning or in 2,3,5, or 10 years, Hamas vwill be a major player politcally. That's on the Palestinians however. They have to grow up and show a willingness to work in the real world too.

I posted a link shredding the Lancet report. Two in fact. They both shedded it.

You're pretending that there is some report in the midst of that which validates your position.

Just quote it if it exists and be done with it. I've already told you I see no mention of your claims.

Was he a popular wartime leader? Yes, he was.

How long can he continue to enjoy the fruits of that I don't know, because as I pointed out, he's generally not popular. Were the war to resume, howeverm and Hamas deemed to be at fault, I would expect the nation to rally behind their leader again.

It's not the big contradiction you think it is.

An incident took place in Miami over the weekend which perfectly encapsulates how problematic radical zionism has become.

An Israeli fanatic targeted a car with what he thought were 2 Palestinians inside. He shot it 17 injuring both and before he learned they had survived, he told police "I killed 2 Palestinians"

Except it wasn't Palestinians in the car, it was an Israeli father and son and before they learned who really had attacked them, they posted on social media saying they been attacked in an antisemitic attack and also "Death to Arabs".

Radical zionism is a massive problem.

Even if I were to agree that Hamas started this war on October 2nd ( which would require me discounting the violent oppression Palestinians have endured for decades), Hamas are still not responsible for the actions of another group.

As for the "trope" comment, something is only a trope of it is a baseless negative generalisation - what I said above definitely has a base, Gaza has been destroyed by the IDF, and in the many examples posted on this thread, at best you could argue that civilians have been treated as dispensable, and at worst, what I suspect is going on - mass ethnic cleansing.

War is hell doesn't excuse it in my eyes, because I don't see this as a traditional war - as I have said many times before, this is a modern extremely well equipped army Vs a terrorist militia, with the well equipped army using it's military resources to destroy a city, civilians be damned. The casualty statistics back this up. There has to be another way for both countries to exist together.

Yea can understand what you mean on your Netenyahu comment, he is supported now as nation are banding together, but other than this is unpopular.

No offense but it's a fools game to try and understand Trump. His own people closest to him don't seem to be able to. The world would seem a lot safer if we could believe this is a dep down rational man who simply has an unconventional negotiating style, but all I see is a v charismatic and vindictive idiot, who truly believes whatever bonkers idea his intuition manufacturers for him is the way to go, and he can drag millions along with him because although he will most likely rob them blind and make their actual lives worse, his twisted take on the world makes them feel important.

I have to judge him on what he says, and what he said amounted to genocide, and Netenyahu agreed with him all the way. Given I feel this guy has no qualms about committing genocide if he can get away with it, this talk is both disgraceful and terrifying.

Agree with you on the Palestinians, and have said it form the start on this thread - extremists on both sides have to go, or stay and abandon their ideology and rhetoric and move toward common ground. The NI peace deal is one of the only blueprints for this type of thing, but that was only a fraction of the bloodshed we see in this conflict, hard to know how something like this could ever be successful, but I don't see any other alternative.

Hamas are responsible for starting the war. Do you agree with that?

Not sure who started it, many debates on that but most likely when Israel was formed as a country and people were displaced over 70 years ago

Wars have consequences. Do you agree with that?

They do, and Israel may see some as more people see what they are doing.

Did you know that only 2400 Americans lost their lives at Pearl harbour, an outrageous act of war by the Japanese?

The consequences of that are well known, and ultimately the Japanese population paid the heaviest price too.

Your attempt to present the IDF as just a bunch of bloodthirsty maniacs randomly prosecuting war for the craic is a typical anti-israeli trope.

How can you equate what Japan did, the USA had done nothing to Japan when Japan declared war on the USA and sided with Germany. Palestine didn't declare war or attack Israel, a bunch of unelected terrorist (Hamas) did. Israel has been attacking Palestine for decades, this didn't start last yr. Yet Israel went after the innocent people of Palestine, Japan attacked a military target, no civilian buildings. Japan apologised for what they did in Pearl Harbour as their waring was late. I wonder when the Israeli state will do the same.

You seem to think war is conducted with pistols at dawn between gentlemen of honour. It's not. Sherman said it best. War is hell.

There are rules to war, a lot came out of WW11, you can't justify what Israel are doing, is that what you're trying to do. Suggest that

Had Hamas surrendered, none of this would have happened. Hamas received 44% of the last election vote, and remain popular. That's the hard facts.

I doubt that very much, Israel would have continued its policy of displacement, land grabs. What Hamas did was like all Netanyahu's Christmas's coming together.

There's so much wrong with this and the other attacks in the US - both on innocent Palestinians and Jews/Israelis.

The current conflict being perpetrated by Israel has so much to answer for.

Interesting opinion piece in Haaretz:

"For 10 days, Netanyahu was arrogant and happy – humiliating the Saudis, needling the Qataris, embracing far-right minister Bezalel Smotrich, bringing his wife into security discussions, trying to bring far-right politician Itamar Ben-Gvir back into his government, dismissing all the bureaucrats as not worth listening to and burying the second stage of the hostage deal.

But Sunday afternoon, it ended. We returned to reality, to where we were a month ago. The 'Trump plan' for Gaza, to the extent that there was one, ended with a laconic statement by the White House that Trump would back Netanyahu in any effort to bring the hostages home. It seems that the attention of the president, who craves endless attention, is already wandering elsewhere…

So now Mideast envoy Steve Witkoff is here to bring everyone in line" – Chaim Levinson