Russia-Ukraine War (continuing)

Rump state? Yawn. Shouldn't have wasted my time.

Where's the bingo board guys? We need a nice new interactive one I think.

Pragmatism? Sure, let's talk about pragmatism.

Is it pragmatic to assume that a state that has shown no concern about international treates it signed with it's neighbours will respect or abide any future agreements with Europe or anyone else?

Is it pragmatic to witness the wholesale slaughter of civilian populations for the "crime" of not wanting to Russian, and assume that the Russians wouldn't assign that same logic to the likes of Poland after having done that very same thing to them about 4 or 5 times in the last 150 years?

Is it pragmatic to see the Russians thoughtlessly lob munitions at a Children's Hospital and assume that they would obey any future rule regarding human rights or any universal sense of human decency?

I would dare say that none of that is pragmatic, but I might argue that the position you have adopted is not built from pragmatism, but from something entirely else.

The problem with that approach is that Russia doesn’t have the manpower (even if they draft everyone with the Y chromosome in that massive shithole) with this grinding tactic to capture the rest of the four oblasts (and would take few dozen years), never mind the rest of Ukraine

But friends of Russia ignore basic maths because the “pragmatists” believe their own coolaid Russia has infinite manpower and equipment which day after day is clearly not the case

No the danger is that Russia rearms and attacks someone else in a few years (and Europe goes back to sticking head in sand, hahaha pun), which could be possible if sanctions are dropped

Which is exactly why the friends of Russia moan so much about sanctions

They will be surviving on not only horrendously expensive LPG if Putin wins, and decides to reclaim not only east but possibly all of Germany, but many other items as well, Lives being the most expensive.

Europe doesn’t need to get on war footing to outspend Russia

Their economy is only twice larger than Irelands now despite 30x the population and all them resources

Russian are stupid to have forgotten that last time they tried to arms race the decadent west

Why do you think that the EU and NATO are beefing up their military's? Just for fun?

Ah yes. It's all NATO's fault isn't it?

Those dead civilians had it coming to them didn't they? Because their state wanted to trade with Europe. How dare they!? Surely death is too good for them for having the audacity to not obey their natual masters in Moscow. But no, noo….it's all about business isn't it? It's all about nickels and dimes and not at all about the civilians who got to witness first hand what Russian occupation looks like…or those who still live with the nightmares of Bucha…wondering how close they came to sharing a mass grave with their friends or family.

Believe it or not (and I know you won't, this is more for the sake of the debate at large) wars like this aren't always about those dasterly capitalist military-complex types. They can also be about stopping despicable b*stards from killing innocents. That is what this one is about. It's very rare to have such a clean cut division of moral authority in any war, but here we have one aggressor who wants to destroy their neighbor, steal their land and have their way with whatever people they choose to spare (for now). They invented the flimsy excuse that NATO were the cause of this, but we both know that's all that is. Don't we, comrade?

Treaties with Putin's Russia are completely worthless for sure. That's not to say that it's impossible for a better Russia to emerge later that can behave like adults and understand their responsibilies to the rest of humanity…but in the meantime, they must be forced to stop. That is all they currently understand.

Whaaaattt? Russia - 'superpower Russia' - which was on the outskirts of Kiev a few years ago… is to be applauded for 'grinding down' a military many times smaller than itself? Apart from the fact that this is simply shifting the goalposts from talking about sanctions to talking about military strategy, why should record breaking losses of personnel and hardware and WW1 style snails pace advances be held up as a success?

I've no idea where you're coming from or what angle you're pushing.

Ah we back to Russians drawing fantasy maps

Let’s examine so;

• Certain - this is rest of four oblasts good chunk of which is on other side of Dnipro. 12-15 years at current Russian pace, maybe never as they have no facilities to cross the river
• Likely - 30-40 years to never
• Possible -lol death of every Russian male and North Korean even if they start force impregnating the female half

La La land stuff, embarrassing for someone talking about “pragmatism”

Oh god, here we go again. Is there not a 'We all Hate America' thread that every contrarian can offload all their angst in and save other threads from being derailed.

This is not a thread about US Foreign Policy.

As for NATO 'advancing'… NATO doesn't 'advance'… its a coalition of nations which a country needs to apply to join. Ukraine have/ had every right to make such an application. And did it escape your attention just how much disdain for NATO the US currently has… make up your mind as to who the bogey man is.

And at the end of it all, despite all the losses suffered by Russia, the 'NATO borders' with Russia have already been massively expanded as a direct result of Putin's aggressive approach to foreign policy.

NATO thought a lesson, blah, blah, blah…

What a crock of horseshit, another bullshit excuse for the invasion. You and your like come on here with all this crap about, NATO, the west, USA, etc…, when you know full well (or are willfully ignorant to) this is primarily an old fashioned land grab.

Putin's main issues are;

1 - No-one really gives a **** about Russia as a 'power' anymore, and they're global influence is waning more and more, behind the US, China, the EU, and others

and 2 - by Ukraine turning towards the EU, it means Russia's influence and standing is further diminished, in a number of ways

So, as trade and influence over Ukraine in the future isn't on his terms, he's said, "**** it then, i'll take what I want", and when you see the values of minerals in the east of Ukraine (trillions and trillions), it's no surprise he's willing to sacrifice basically everything to get control of them. Looking to the future, whoever controls rare earths and minerals in general, is going to have massive sway, and that's what Putin wants, Russia to have a standing akin to the USSR.

So please, don't waste your time like others on here with the usual bingo card excuses, they've been floated and dismissed innumerable times before.

I give you the NATO-Russia Founding Act. Which Russia signed.

That lays down the framework for NATO expansion, including eg Ukraine joining NATO.

Russia \ USSR also signed agreements respecting the rights of countries, including Ukraine, to decide its own security arrangements.

So on multiple levels, the comparison with what happened 50 years is whataboutery, and not even informed whataboutery. It's just the standard response of vatniks pushing Russian propaganda.