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Rump state? Yawn. Shouldn't have wasted my time.
Where's the bingo board guys? We need a nice new interactive one I think.
Do you know what Russia's aims are? Because they haven't exactly been consistent on that point.
Pragmatism? Sure, let's talk about pragmatism.
Is it pragmatic to assume that a state that has shown no concern about international treates it signed with it's neighbours will respect or abide any future agreements with Europe or anyone else?
Is it pragmatic to witness the wholesale slaughter of civilian populations for the "crime" of not wanting to Russian, and assume that the Russians wouldn't assign that same logic to the likes of Poland after having done that very same thing to them about 4 or 5 times in the last 150 years?
Is it pragmatic to see the Russians thoughtlessly lob munitions at a Children's Hospital and assume that they would obey any future rule regarding human rights or any universal sense of human decency?
I would dare say that none of that is pragmatic, but I might argue that the position you have adopted is not built from pragmatism, but from something entirely else.
Sanctions are better than no sanctions. Russia can source most things, but they have to go to more effort, it can cost more to source from China. Every added sanction and restriction makes life a little more difficult for them - it's a complete no-brainer.
We can mock their military. It comprises human wave attacks, prisoners, taxi-drivers, T62's - grinding forward with no regard for the lives of their men. Medieval armies had vastly more respect for their soldiers that modern Russia does.
It can be effective, Russia started the war with a vastly larger military, untouched production, untouched domestic supply lines, every imaginable advantage, they got pushed right back but they learned how to use all that quantity to grind forward gradually whilst sacrificing horrendous amounts of their own material and men.
The problem with that approach is that Russia doesn’t have the manpower (even if they draft everyone with the Y chromosome in that massive shithole) with this grinding tactic to capture the rest of the four oblasts (and would take few dozen years), never mind the rest of Ukraine
But friends of Russia ignore basic maths because the “pragmatists” believe their own coolaid Russia has infinite manpower and equipment which day after day is clearly not the case
No the danger is that Russia rearms and attacks someone else in a few years (and Europe goes back to sticking head in sand, hahaha pun), which could be possible if sanctions are dropped
Which is exactly why the friends of Russia moan so much about sanctions
Yes there is a market for Russian oil, but it doesn't make sense for us to buy it while they are at war with us
Yep they can avoid sanctions, they'll survive, it'll just be harder than if they had no sanctions
Russia is waging hybrid warfare on Europe, nightly their state TV hosts talk about war and dropping nukes on us, they are invading Ukraine - you can believe whatever you want, pretending Putin is not a threat is entirely why we are in this current situation
And like clockwork there's the same mask-off rant about "US imperialism", yeah America is an eternally evil entity responsible for all the bad in the world, etc, etc, we get it. Every contrarian and agitator produces the same script.
Pragmatism is cutting off any reliance on Putin and facing the fact that he will never ever stop unless stopped. Two decades of Europe bowing and scraping to him have led to a point where we can't appease our way out of the situation any longer.
They will be surviving on not only horrendously expensive LPG if Putin wins, and decides to reclaim not only east but possibly all of Germany, but many other items as well, Lives being the most expensive.
People keep saying saying there's a market for Russian oil, but are we even sure Russia can actually still pump and transport supply to the market?
A country attacking on donkey's and in Ladas against 21st century evolutionary weapons doesn't exactly sound dynamic.
Well, nothing about the West's posture indicates that they believe The Guardian' (et al) ad hoc narrative.
War footing anyone?
By their fruits ye shall know them. 800 military bases spanning the world. War whereever they go. There's a darn sight more actual evidence for American imperialism than there is for 'the Russians are coming" to an Eastern european country near you..
Europe doesn’t need to get on war footing to outspend Russia
Their economy is only twice larger than Irelands now despite 30x the population and all them resources
Russian are stupid to have forgotten that last time they tried to arms race the decadent west
Pragmatism means not putting too much weight on treaties. If Russia decides that NATO advancing into the same country that both Napolean and Hitler utilised in their attack, what use 'peace in our time'?
We can argue all day long about the reality of the (ludicrous to me sounding) notion of back to the USSR vs enough-is-enough NATO expansion.
Point is: the West's larger requirement for business will trump the current nose-holding about cheap Russian gas.
The West doesn't actually give a crap about Ukraine. Why should they - other than the value of its resources to corporates, what has Ukraine ever done for us?
Its as if you believe the West has some lofty principles or something.
Why do you think that the EU and NATO are beefing up their military's? Just for fun?
There's hints of early Putin's rise in Trump's America too. His base really do mean it when they want to be great again even if it means dragging everyone else down.
As Britain embraced its post imperial decline it changed the name of War Office to the Ministry of Defense.
The US still thinks war is a tool for economic self interest.
Russia hasn't the manpower for a grinding war in which they cannot but enjoy very favourable loss ratios due to their (accepted by even the MSM) overweight in artillery, air, missile and other strike systems.
Yet Ukraine has the manpower to resist (we can ignore The Guardian's piece of a few days laying the future on the shoulders of Zelensky's Jungend)
This is the height of copium, not to speak of blind hopium.
A view which can only sustain itself by supposing the Russians (for reasons nobody can sensibly explain other than suppose the Russians retarded) engage in human wave assaults they have absolutely no need to engage in.
Meanwhile, the cauldrons continue to be constructed and liquidated
They have all the appearance of an attempting to grind Ukraine/West ability to field a military force down to a stump - at the most favourable loss ratios.
This must be the primary aim of any military adventure.
After that? Ukraine rendered a rump state that will act as a buffer between themselves and NATO. And NATO taught a lesson they won't forget in a long time.
What the actual terms for ending it will be will depend on how badly the West want to lose. Russia appear willing to go the distance - although I doubt occupying the whole of Ukraine is seen as desirable by them.
Maybe the Dnieper?
Good quality writing on the conflict by Big Serge on Substack produced this by way of outcomes
Ah yes. It's all NATO's fault isn't it?
Those dead civilians had it coming to them didn't they? Because their state wanted to trade with Europe. How dare they!? Surely death is too good for them for having the audacity to not obey their natual masters in Moscow. But no, noo….it's all about business isn't it? It's all about nickels and dimes and not at all about the civilians who got to witness first hand what Russian occupation looks like…or those who still live with the nightmares of Bucha…wondering how close they came to sharing a mass grave with their friends or family.
Believe it or not (and I know you won't, this is more for the sake of the debate at large) wars like this aren't always about those dasterly capitalist military-complex types. They can also be about stopping despicable b*stards from killing innocents. That is what this one is about. It's very rare to have such a clean cut division of moral authority in any war, but here we have one aggressor who wants to destroy their neighbor, steal their land and have their way with whatever people they choose to spare (for now). They invented the flimsy excuse that NATO were the cause of this, but we both know that's all that is. Don't we, comrade?
Treaties with Putin's Russia are completely worthless for sure. That's not to say that it's impossible for a better Russia to emerge later that can behave like adults and understand their responsibilies to the rest of humanity…but in the meantime, they must be forced to stop. That is all they currently understand.
So you don't know. That's all you had to say.
Whaaaattt? Russia - 'superpower Russia' - which was on the outskirts of Kiev a few years ago… is to be applauded for 'grinding down' a military many times smaller than itself? Apart from the fact that this is simply shifting the goalposts from talking about sanctions to talking about military strategy, why should record breaking losses of personnel and hardware and WW1 style snails pace advances be held up as a success?
I've no idea where you're coming from or what angle you're pushing.
Must be a new record for a 'concerned poster' to drop their mask??
Ah we back to Russians drawing fantasy maps
Let’s examine so;
La La land stuff, embarrassing for someone talking about “pragmatism”
Residents of Kemerovo, Russia begging for help in heating their homes. Coal is now running short and not available to homeowners.
The online begging videos have become a thing in Russia.
Oh god, here we go again. Is there not a 'We all Hate America' thread that every contrarian can offload all their angst in and save other threads from being derailed.
This is not a thread about US Foreign Policy.
As for NATO 'advancing'… NATO doesn't 'advance'… its a coalition of nations which a country needs to apply to join. Ukraine have/ had every right to make such an application. And did it escape your attention just how much disdain for NATO the US currently has… make up your mind as to who the bogey man is.
And at the end of it all, despite all the losses suffered by Russia, the 'NATO borders' with Russia have already been massively expanded as a direct result of Putin's aggressive approach to foreign policy.
Advance is a word in English.
If you look at an animation since the fall of the USSR you will see NATO advance.
NATO is a military allance so from a Russian perspective:
"A military alliance is heading towards us in a strategically sensitive way"
Ukraine has every right to ignore what a major power next door might have to say.
I give you the US response to Cubas rights in similar circumstances
Putin actually talked about aligning with NATO during the Bush Jr years when Moscow was deputized sheriff in that region in the war against a noun.
NATO thought a lesson, blah, blah, blah…
What a crock of horseshit, another bullshit excuse for the invasion. You and your like come on here with all this crap about, NATO, the west, USA, etc…, when you know full well (or are willfully ignorant to) this is primarily an old fashioned land grab.
Putin's main issues are;
1 - No-one really gives a **** about Russia as a 'power' anymore, and they're global influence is waning more and more, behind the US, China, the EU, and others
and 2 - by Ukraine turning towards the EU, it means Russia's influence and standing is further diminished, in a number of ways
So, as trade and influence over Ukraine in the future isn't on his terms, he's said, "**** it then, i'll take what I want", and when you see the values of minerals in the east of Ukraine (trillions and trillions), it's no surprise he's willing to sacrifice basically everything to get control of them. Looking to the future, whoever controls rare earths and minerals in general, is going to have massive sway, and that's what Putin wants, Russia to have a standing akin to the USSR.
So please, don't waste your time like others on here with the usual bingo card excuses, they've been floated and dismissed innumerable times before.
Another one who measures success in terms of land obtained rather than ability to resist ground down.
You do know that Ukraine doesn't have prepares defences running all the way back to Poland?
You remember the Eastern front? The Wehrmacht ground down to a stump then nothing from there to Berlin.
I give you the NATO-Russia Founding Act. Which Russia signed.
That lays down the framework for NATO expansion, including eg Ukraine joining NATO.
Russia \ USSR also signed agreements respecting the rights of countries, including Ukraine, to decide its own security arrangements.
So on multiple levels, the comparison with what happened 50 years is whataboutery, and not even informed whataboutery. It's just the standard response of vatniks pushing Russian propaganda.
Since you just poped into existence and missing large chunks of recent history from programming
Let me remind you that only two years ago or so Russia had double the territory they have now and of course there were less defences
It’s interesting that you don’t identify modern Russia as Nazis they have become and have forgotten what happened to Nazis 1.0 on their way to Moscow
