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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    Eh but is that not exactly what happened?

    Prendergast was played in the autumn series and Andy farrell got pilliored for it, accused of Leinster bias and trying to sabotage Jack crowley according to some Munster fans in particular?

    And he delivered strong enough performances that the coaches started him in the 6n opener and are likely to pick him again this weekend?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,828 ✭✭✭50HX


    Kudos & excellent analysis

    Good to read that level of detail



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77




  • Administrators Posts: 56,319 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    We in Ireland lost a generation of 10's after Sexton because they never got a chance until they were 25.

    I don't think this is accurate. Most of the 10s that came through during the Sexton era were not good enough. Madigan, Carty and Keatley initially with Burns and Byrne in the later years, they were never really at the level. Carbery just couldn't stay fit.

    Jackson was the only one on track to be the sort of player who'd be a test regular and who may have eventually legitimately challenged Sexton for his spot, and he was lost for reasons nothing to do with selection.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,392 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Didn't catch the match live, and missed all the discussion points since, so watched the match last night and came on here to see what the concesus was.
    Have to say I'm a bit confused why all the talk seems to be centred around the 10's, I thought they were both decent, nothing great.
    I was far more interested in the lineout being so much improved, and the scrums seemed to me to be fairly steady, particularly without Furlong.
    I thought our second rows were excellent, and must be the partnership for the remainder of the tournament, the rock that everything around them depends on.
    Our Number 6 is the one I came away with questions, I thought Conan was magnificent when he came on. I've always rated him as an option at 6, but not sure did he play at 8 and Doris shifted over?
    Needless to say I would start Conan the next day, i thought he was outstanding.
    I also thought Hansen was very good, he was getting to a lot of rucks and holding them well, and he had a really impressive carry and offload in the English 22 I thought was his best play of the day. We'll probably never know how bad his injury was, I suspect it took a small bit of acceleration from him, but he muscled through so we didn't waste a sub, so I'd give him credit for that. Having said that he did get caught out badly for the ruck penalty in their half at the end with the clock in the red to give them a chance to kick into our half, I think he had hands on the ground beyond the ruck.
    Lowe was man of the match for me, and Gibson Park was very good too. I thought Aki made some very good carries, and a great finish for his try. The New Zealand trio will be badly missed when they age out of the team in a year or two.
    I thought our attack formation was excellent throughout too, really impressed how the point of attack moved with every pass, some real intent in the way they line across the pitch. Other teams seem to fan out, one-out runners, but Ireland always seem to have two or three options, and stagger the line so there is a back door if a shooter interrupts the front line.
    Sheehan's try was wonderful, could watch it on repeat! I think Kelleher was very good also, so for me there's a headache to decide who starts the next day.

    Really looking forward to Sunday's match with Scotland, I will be able to watch it live at least thankfully, hopefully anyway!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,076 ✭✭✭crusd


    At the 2015 world cup Madigan had usurped Jackson as number 2. And then he landed in a QF with Sexton injured and never having started against a top team. We knew he had ability but had no clue could he do it at the top level. Jackson wasn't even trusted to come off the bench in that match at 23. It was only the following summer when he finally got a consistent run as a starter, at almost 25.

    In such a pivotal position, especially the way we play, we must always be looking to expose more than one player to the top level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,901 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    Excellent post.

    Small point : We don't have a 'New Zealand trio'. Hansen, like Frawley & Bealham were born in Australia.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,117 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Bringing new players into an established team, where they can be surrounded by experienced players is the way to do it. Opposition ought to be immaterial to that. If they're good enough to warrant selection, pick them. Training camps are there for them to learn the systems etc. Waiting to blood lads in scratch teams against Tier 2 sides isn't good enough



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,965 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    NZ trio:

    Aki, Lowe and JGP.

    all mentioned in the preceding two sentences.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,901 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,799 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Dougie! I like that!

    I can see the logic now.

    Tempting fate here but Ireland have managed VdM very well over the years.

    The only time he's had any impact was the 1st time he played Ireland. 2020 ANC. Picked at the base of a ruck and ghosted by Quinn Roux and a 'covering' Stockdale (FB!).

    Ireland in attack usually target his wing and Darcy Graham with good success.

    Huw Jones is dangerous. Kinghorn is a big upgrade on that other yoke at FB.

    Cant wait for Sunday!

    Have to say I would love to see POM v Scotland! Just for one last time!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,811 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I always thought it had to take place before another score because it can't happen then but about a month I saw a try reversed after the conversion. I can't remember the game but it makes sense to have the conversion taken and then change it afterwards if necessary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,830 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    Yeah, it used to be the case that once the conversion was taken, the try couldn't be revisited. You'd be watching it on TV and knowing that it was dodgy, be shouting at the kicker to get on with it. 🤣

    But they changed that a few years ago and now the try can be disallowed after the kick.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    They changed the rule about 2 years ago. It can be overturned until the restart.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,319 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Is there anything to be said for picking Boyle ahead of Healy?

    I am not for change for changes sake but this seems like a change we're going to have to make in the very near future and I don't think I'd be so concerned about the Scottish scrum that I think we need to have Healy for this one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    I think there is a huge opportunity here in next few games to give Boyle his opportunity. I doubt it will happen but I don't think it's a risk at all.

    Beyond that Loughman is a known quantity and can do a job but we need a few other options at LHP now.

    Hopefully milne gets a decent run at Munster and develops enough to challenge for the Irish 23



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,753 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    They have such different strengths and weaknesses, it should depend on what they need.

    Healy is reliable in the set piece, particularly the scrum and almost absent in open play. Boyle is not proven in the scrum and decent in open play.

    If all they want is to lock out the scrum, then Healy makes sense, but if they think Boyle could break even in the scrum then I'd prefer Boyle.

    Boyle has improved so much since last year that he might be ready without concerns next year. Im impatient to see him play and develop but maybe there's no need to rush him.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,319 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    What worries me is we are pretty reliant on Porter remaining a physical freak who can put in 70/80 minute performances week after week.

    Eventually this won't happen. Imagine Porter went down injured in the first few minutes, can we carry Healy in open play for the majority of a game?

    Not that I am saying he'd be totally useless, but time waits for no man.

    I think, as you say, the upcoming games are against teams who we should dominate up front, and Boyle is a low risk change that we should be looking at.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,322 ✭✭✭✭phog


    We're in bother if Healy has to play anything longer than 10-15 minutes. It's at the stage now they may as well go for it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,505 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    Boyle 's side of the scrum has looked solid this season when he's played, think we have to trust him at this point.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭niallm77


    It's not really about the here and now though. It's more about the next few years.

    BOYLE has played against teams this season which are on a par or better then Scotland/wales at scrum time and with Kelleher, Sheehan, Bealham and Clarkson, I dont think playing Boyle v Scotland and wales is a risk at all. If that means we get Porter off after 50-55 min instead of 75 then that keeps him fresh for the French game and longer term it's better to be able to replace him when we want to and not 20 minutes later



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,117 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    It's not like Healy or Porter are particularly stellar in the scrum either, and certainly weren't when they broke into the team. Remember Adam Jones bending Healy in half in the 2011 QF? There's no reason to not start playing Boyle or whomever is in line to back up Porter



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,095 ✭✭✭CMcsporty


    Have to say I'm a bit confused why all the talk seems to be centred around the 10's, I thought they were both decent, nothing great.

    Dont worry. You only have to endure their mediocrity (!) for a few years. Soon we will all be living in the Casper Gabriel and Charlie Hempenstall era of greatness. Apparently.

    Lowe was man of the match for me, and Gibson Park was very good too. I thought Aki made some very good carries, and a great finish for his try. The New Zealand trio will be badly missed when they age out of the team in a year or two.

    3 special players. Hugh Gavin & Osborne are the future at centre. But Lowe and JGP are quite unique players. They have a great skill and instinct for the game. Very difficult to replace.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,965 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    The new free kick rule, on top of the numeric reduction of scrums over the last few years, means that pure scrummaging props are no longer as valuable.

    There was only 11 scrums in the England game, compared to 38 line outs. In this fixture 2 years ago there was 14 scrums and 28 line outs. 8 years ago there was 15 scrums and 25 line outs.

    Think your being bested by your opposition, refuse the hit and give away a free kick. Better result than giving away a penalty and finding yourself defending a line out on your five. Further out the field the free kick just leads to a hail Mary.

    More mobile props with better hands is what is going to be valuable going forward. Even in the immediate future, I'd have Boyle in for Healy (once he's hitting his marks in training)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,811 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Where are you playing Osborne, 12 or 13? Gavin is a far better 12 than 13. He plays 13 when Bundee is there but he excels at 12 when he's not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    While i agree there are less scrums now especially with the new rule where you can't call a scrum from a free kick. You still need a front row who can scrummage.

    IRE gave up 3 scrum penalties v NZ in the world cup QF that effectively cost us the game. One when NZ only had 7 men in the scrum.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,628 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    I think they have to use the same ball so if the try scorer throws it into the crowd, could take a bit to get it back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,322 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I questioned myself on that but couldn't find anything on it but I didn't try too hard either

    Same ball for a quick lineout but can't recall ever seeing the ball being checked for a conversion



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It's in Law 8

    1.The kicker:

    a. Uses the ball that was in play unless it is defective .

    b. Takes the kick in the field of play on a line through the place where the try was awarded, parallel to the touchlines .

    c. Places the ball directly on the ground or on sand, sawdust, or a kicking tee . The kicker may be assisted by a placer . Nothing else may be used to assist the kicker .

    d. Takes the kick within 90 seconds (playing time) from the time the try was awarded, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again .

    Sanction: Kick is disallowed

    Can't recall I've ever seen it come up either, but its in there.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,830 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    So it's tight enough with the reduction to 60 seconds. A bit of a learning curve for teams.

    Also an opportunity for shenanigans. Lie on the try scorer and don't let him up for a few seconds. Every bit helps. 🤣



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