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What do you think happens after death?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,257 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Sure. I agree completely. I didn't intend any criticism of you and, if it came across that way, I apologise.

    What I'm saying, I think, is that the reason you offer for holding the belief you do is not a particularly compelling reason for holding that belief. And that raises the possiblity that you may, in fact, hold the belief for other, unacknowledged reasons, which might be worth considering and exporing.

    Again, this is not a criticism of you or of your beliefs. The reasons why any of us hold the beliefs we do are often complex, and often poorly understood, even by ourselves. This does not invalidate the beliefs, but it does open up a field of enquiry that we usually neglect. The psychology of belief is worth unpacking.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Sure, your probably right, it isn't very compelling. I know I would actually love to believe in an afterlife, I just can't, for whatever reason



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,132 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Also if you are fabulously rich and feel that death is somewhat inconvenient, you'd like to believe in your ability to transfer your conscious mind into either a computer, or more chillingly, into one of those sub humans you don't believe have a soul. This is, of course, insane.

    While I agree that the idea of being able to transfer a human consciousness into a computer is very far-fetched based on our current levels of technology, any religiously held beliefs relating to an after-life are similarly far-fetched to someone who does not share those religious beliefs. Suggesting a belief is insane because it is not one you share is unwise as it is a path towards conflict and arguments that can't be resolved. Easier just to say you don't share someone else's belief.

    While I don't think we have any technology as yet that even approaches transferring consciousness, I do think there are strong indications that may well develop conscious AIs at some point in the future. Interestingly, if we do, they may well have transferable, replicable consciousnesses and a potential lifespan approaching what we would consider immortal. Ensoulment aside, I'm not sure I'd classify them as sub-human on that basis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭carveone


    I was suggesting that transferring of a rich person's conscious mind into into another human would be insane. I stand by that.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,132 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    And has anyone suggested this is actually possible? A quick search for brain transplant (cerebrosomatic anastomosis) comes up with solid negatives on any link I've checked.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭carveone


    Ah well, I was indulging in some science-fiction style whataboutery there perhaps which distracted from what I was trying to say. It was poor form on my part to bring it up but I couldn't help myself.

    What I was trying to get at is that there are people who will staunchly say they are Christians but happily align with non-Christian philosophies if they believe it allows them to cause suffering to other people without consequence, moral or spiritual or otherwise. They want to say or believe they are good people while doing terrible things. This happens all the time.

    I found it fascinating that first of all people were wrestling with conflicting philosophies of mind/body/soul as far back as Paul and second of all that Christianity aligns itself with the concept that these are inseparable properties of an individual. The concept that you can be a human without these properties is anathema and the idea that you can harm people because you believe they don't have a soul is therefore unchristian. Not that it stops people but…

    As I said, this is something I agree with even I don't believe in life after death per se myself (although give me another 20 years and I'll probably want to believe in it a lot more!)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,705 ✭✭✭yagan


    What we think no doubt can be very influenced by traditional cultural beliefs. The medieval mind saw this life as merely preparation for the afterlife.

    What we know, what we believe and what we think are three different things.

    We know that death is the end, we can believe it is or is not the end, and what we think is mere projection.

    More interesting though is what we feel happens after we die.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,132 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Thanks for the clarification. Very much my take on Christianity, as I imagine it was originally intended for the greater good, versus how it has become subverted for the exact opposite on so many occasions across its chequered history, which continues to this day.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,049 ✭✭✭54and56


    "there is also no proof of there being no afterlife" is about as credible as saying "there is also no proof that when we die we all become flying spaghetti monsters"

    If you want to demonstrate something is true you should present some evidence of same. Saying no one can prove a hypotesis isn't true demonstrates nothing other than an inability to provide any evidence that it is in fact true.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭These Are Facts


    Just head for the light, and you'll be grand.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭lumphammer2


    Well there is only one way to find out what exists or does not exist after life ….. there is simply no way of presenting evidence about topics like afterlife, when did time begin, how did matter form, what was there before, etc. …… inability to provide evidence is ….. for rather obvious reasons ….. the status quo here ….. scientists can only go so far and end up down a cul de sac because there simply is much …. in fact nearly everything ….. we don't know because we do not know where life came from and how life/time/matter began if it even began ….. because no matter how far you go back you have to say what caused what lead to the formation of matter and what lead to the thing that lead to the formation of matter etc etc etc …… no one has the answers yet ……. no one even knows how to go about truly getting them …… let alone having a hypothesis to test ……



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,053 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    I like the idea of pan-dimensional pasta. 😋 yummy!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Deregos.
    Time to put childish things aside.


    I like what Jesus said about all being revealed in Luke.12.2
    "There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known".

    Of course . . that's only if I actually make it into heaven, but I'm afraid it's not looking great atm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29 hfenton


    I can't think of anything that is intended for the greater good that isn't often subverted for the exact opposite. Can anyone else? To me it reflects the human condition and our capacity for both good and evil.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,132 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    In terms of human behavior inspired by abstract philosophy, Taoism comes to mind, maybe Humanism too though I've not had much exposure to it. For large organisations, the United Nations or the International Committee of the Red Cross International Committee of the Red Cross perhaps.

    I agree entirely that collectively we have capacity for both good and evil, though find they are rather broad and ambiguous terms, and would tend to break them down into more concrete aspects of good and evil. For example greed is as much part of human nature as generosity, probably more so in very many people. Corruption tends to be insidious and will creep into any large organisation that is open to it given the opportunity. Large, monolithic, hierarchical organisations that lack high levels of transparency and public accountability yet wield significant social power are something of a breeding ground here. Among them, but certainly not alone, are large religious organisations though in my opinion political oligarchies would seem to be the larger problem for humanity right now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭Archduke Franz Ferdinand


    it’s one of those head melting questions, like why are we here, where do we go, what’s the point of it all, how did life start, how did the universe start etc etc etc. l recently seen a clip of David Attenborough asked if he believed in a higher power. He said he had looked into a termite mound by taking the top off, these creatures are blind and as he looked on they busied themselves with their lives unaware he was looking on. So l guess what he was saying is we could be the termites in the sense we cannot conceive of some possibilies that may exist



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,408 ✭✭✭Eire Go Brach


    "Mass can neither be created nor destroyed"

    We are just atoms and molecules. The human body just breaks down. They get absorbed and used again by the universe.

    We live on in the same way every other animal on this planet lives on. Through procreation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 39,857 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Mass certainly can be created, every Sunday morning 😉

    We are atoms and molecules but we're more than that, we have consciousness and are aware of our fate. We can ponder our own demise, whatever conclusions we may come to.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29 hfenton


    Maybe more advanced extra terrestrials know, or perhaps it only applies to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27 RossNolan


    It's the big question right? I'd be a Christian leaning agonistic is closer to the believer than the doubter end of the spectrum (atheist parents but I'm definitely much more spiritually inclined than them and I've gotten more so over the years) so I don't know. I guess I hover between Heaven (or at least some form of afterlife you go to after you pas on) and some form of reincarnation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭Appletart Upsetter


    I seen this thread pop up on the main page and it made me give the question some consideration.

    I would be happy if there was something beyond this life, something inconceivable to me now, something that is wonderful and I can meet people who I've lost.

    Unfortunately, logic suggests that this is all there is. Hopefully, this conclusion is just the limitations of my mind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1 Nella_


    You speak of 'logic' when you talk about the death of our physical bodies, and how anything beyond it is inconceivable. If I may ask you, what do you believe the logic is behind our very existence?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭Appletart Upsetter


    A random series of events in the infinite universe. I'm not sure there is any grand design.

    Hopefully I'm wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,049 ✭✭✭54and56




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,257 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    But then some kind of afterlife could also be the outcome of random events in the infinite etc etc.

    There's nothing illogical about the concept of an afterlife. There are other rational objections, but I don't think this is one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,513 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    I'm not sure. I haven't seen any real evidence of the supernatural. I am currently an agnostic rather than an atheist.

    I am sceptical of some of the Old Testament stories like the exodus, as the archaeological consensus is that it's fictional. The story of Esther, Queen consort of Persia, being Jewish, is rejected by scholars. She is not mentioned in Persian sources. Xerxes was married to Amestris, who was not Jewish. Herodotus described her as as a cruel Queen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,257 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I'm not sure. I haven't seen any real evidence of the supernatural. I am currently an agnostic rather than an atheist.

    But evidence and logic are unrelated. You can reason logically without any evidence at all. Conversely you can have loads of good evidence, but reason wildly illogically in drawing inferences or conclusions from it.

    I am sceptical of some of the Old Testament stories like the exodus, as the archaeological consensus is that it's fictional. The story of Esther, Queen consort of Persia, being Jewish, is rejected by scholars. She is not mentioned in Persian sources. Xerxes was married to Amestris, who was not Jewish. Herodotus described her as as a cruel Queen.

    These stories may well be unhistorical. But as they are not stories about an afterlife, they don't cast much light, one way or another, on the question addressed in this thread.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,132 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    True, though as an abstract concept, logic does not have to be based on reality. It can be thought of as a progression from one or more assumptions (input or starting state) to one or more conclusions. Those conclusions will hold true if the logic is correct and, more importantly, the initial assumptions are true. A mark of a good detective or science fiction novel for example is that it is logically consistent.

    I'm not sure there is any grand design.

    Hopefully I'm wrong.

    The above statement is interesting in this regard as it firstly shows the questionable veracity of the starting assumption needed for there to be an afterlife and introduces a personal preference or bias. I strongly suspect most people who believe in a life after death very much want it to be true, to the extent they have historically placed those who categorically state it to be true in positions of power and severely punish those who contradict their belief. This isn't logic, it is confirmation bias and fear often leading to cruelty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,257 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The above statement is interesting in this regard as it firstly shows the questionable veracity of the starting assumption needed for there to be an afterlife and introduces a personal preference or bias. I strongly suspect most people who believe in a life after death very much want it to be true, to the extent they have historically placed those who categorically state it to be true in positions of power and severely punish those who contradict their belief. This isn't logic, it is confirmation bias and fear often leading to cruelty.

    WEll as the same statement shows, even people who don't believe in an afterlife might also want it to be true that there is.

    I'm not so convinced by the notion that afterlife-believers have historically put their co-believers in power, and severely punished those of the opposite view. The implication is that afterlife-believers are positioned so as to be able to decide who will be in power which, historically, is a bit of a stretch; access to power has been a bit more complex that that, and afterlife-belief hasn't generally featured as a decisive criterion. And, while you will find historical examples of afterlife-believers in power who have punished those who disagree, you will equally find afterlife-deniers in power who have punished those who disagree.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,132 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm not so convinced by the notion that afterlife-believers have historically put their co-believers in power, and severely punished those of the opposite view. The implication is that afterlife-believers are positioned so as to be able to decide who will be in power which, historically, is a bit of a stretch; access to power has been a bit more complex that that, and afterlife-belief hasn't generally featured as a decisive criterion.

    If we take heaven and hell from the equation, religion has little to offer, or threaten with for that matter, for the population at large. Without these, why do you suppose society would elevate religions to a position of power?

    And, while you will find historical examples of afterlife-believers in power who have punished those who disagree, you will equally find afterlife-deniers in power who have punished those who disagree.

    Something of a false dichotomy and red herring there, both of these can be true without contradicting the other.



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