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Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,768 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I don't understand this reasoning at all I have to say.

    daa have an email declaring their submission valid. They have emails requesting pre-planning meetings. Then FCC very publicly announced their application was invalid and that they are concerned that daa never tried to use the pre-planning process. I don't understand how anyone could think this is anything other than a screw up by FCC.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,335 ✭✭✭trellheim


    And thats a fair point but FCC arent thick either . Absolutely nothing to be gained by being in public as DAA wanted FCC to have it in the first place as pointed out above.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,096 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    Somebody somewhere f**ked up big time and my belief it’s on FCC’s side not the DAA. Not saying the DAA are saints by any means but I can see why they went public in the way they did, it stinks of incompetence!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,144 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    The emails about pre-planning have no bearing on valid/invalid. But the email saying it was valid is odd. Even more odd, the email has a letter attached, but DAA didn't screenshot that.

    Saying it's valid in an email is not official. But a letter may be. Like others have said, having this spat in public seems unproductive. If the DAA have a letter saying it is valid, then that should have been on a meeting table the next day. The form edited to be neutral, and the the application continuing. Then an FI request.

    DAA will likely lose 2 months by reapplying



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,768 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The emails about pre-planning have no bearing on valid/invalid

    They don't, but FCC also made a snotty remark about daa not engaging in that process, which appears at best misleading.

    I don't think the spat is particularly edifying for anyone, but FCC clearly started it with their unnecessarily loaded comments after declaring the submission invalid.

    "It is a matter of great concern to the Planning Authority that such a significant planning application is invalid. Pre-planning is available to assist applicants but did not take place for this application,” the planning authority said.

    Saying it is valid in an email may not be official, but its a horrendously bad look for FCC to have done so and then renege on that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,144 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Completely agree. I was suggesting the entire way its playing out makes them both look bad.

    Saying it is valid in an email may not be official, but its a horrendously bad look for FCC to have done so and then renege on that.

    Agree, which is why I'm surprised they didn't release a screenshot of the letter, on FCC letterhead, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,144 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    There were two submissions on the application.
    One from a person in Wicklow that complained about the extra noise pollution in Wicklow National Park.

    Another that can't be described. Seems to be intentional nonsense, in order have an option to appeal whatever decision is made.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭dublin12367


    both submissions are exactly what’s wrong with the planning system. The €20 fee is far too low and doesn’t deter bogus observations, it’s far too easy to object and there’s serial objectors with no valid or real concerns. It’s nearly a hobby for some. If the fee to lodge an observation was raised to €300 FCC and all councils would be left with the genuine observations with valid concerns and none of this messing or copy and paste objections.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,702 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    FCC and all of the councils here are morons… At this stage, there is this nonsense of "he said, she said". These are state bodies. I have a solution, non of this crap anymore, all meetings are recorded and available for the public to see. That stops the nonsense dead in its tracks…

    Also, the anti needs to be massively upped here, as government arent doing anything. DAA if FCC are lying, need to just release the proof to the public. As I see it, this will go on for years, increasing caps etc, a never ending farce. The hand has to be forced now, to remove any cap. Not then years down the road… FCC now obviously hate DAA, they also have a vested interest for political reasons for stalling as long as possible, on top of this, no doubt the councillors also live in the area? Game over. If they do want to be part of a reasonable process, you remove them from it. simple…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,566 ✭✭✭Economics101




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,476 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Maybe if the DAA wasn’t so arrogant and blatant with breaking the passenger cap by a million last year they might have had better luck with their application.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭dublin12367


    what could the daa have done to stop that happening? They don’t control the slots as you well know so please clarify how the daa are arrogant and blatantly broke the passenger cap last year?

    Nobody can ever answer that question. What do YOU think the daa could have legally done last year to remain within the 32m cap?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,476 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    So if they don’t control the number of flights from Dublin Airport what do they actually do?


    Why are they asking for more slots so?

    And why are they the ones responsible for the application???



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭moonshy2022




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,956 ✭✭✭Nermal


    The cabinet. Councils are controlled by NIMBYS. ABP has been compromised by Green ideology.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭dublin12367


    can you point me in the direction where the daa asked for more slots while the 32m cap remains in place?

    What will the daa do with slots?

    Airlines request slots to operate at an airport, that isn’t just unique to Dublin. Have a look at the ACL report for all airlines slots request for a range of airports. Airlines have looked for more slots, not the daa.

    The IAA tried to put a seat cap ( daa were in favour) and what happened as a result? It’s been challenged by the airlines and not only has it been challenged in the Irish courts, it’s been referred to the EU. The courts have put a stay on that ruling by the IAA pending a decision and extra slots have been granted. Nothing to do with the daa.

    So I ask you again, what could the daa have done to remain within the 32m cap in 2024 or remain within it in 2025. Maybe they could refuse to let passengers in through the doors in December but allow empty flights take off so the allocated slots are respected, would that work for you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,702 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Looks like government going to sort this out... that's what happens when you act like a child FCC... may a whole host of new daily flights occur ... and they will... LOL!!

    https://www.businesspost.ie/article/major-shift-leaders-finally-back-minister-to-solve-airport-cap-row/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,096 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    I don’t have a SBP subscription, could someone paste the article? I had made a cuppa and was looking forward to sitting down to read it and didn’t know it’s behind a paywall.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,702 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim



    A major shift in the government’s attitude to the controversial Dublin Airport passenger cap will take place this week once a new minister for transport is appointed, the Business Post can reveal.

    While the incoming parties believe former Green Party minister Eamon Ryan would have been loath to find solutions that would have led to the passenger cap being lifted, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil will now be “at one” on the issue.

    It is expected that DAA will be advised by the government to develop a number of options to solve the issue, before beginning a series of engagements with the new minister who will have the full backing of government to find a political solution.

    Speaking to the Business Post this weekend, Kenny Jacobs, the DAA chief executive, said the escalation of the conflict this week has led him to consider legal action against Fingal County Council.

    Jacobs said he was “blindsided” by a statement from the local authority on Tuesday evening that rejected as invalid a planning application to raise the cap to 36 million passengers per year.

    Read more on Dublin Airport

    Big Read: Why Fingal’s shock move on Dublin Airport passenger cap has ‘baffled’ DAA

    DAA ‘baffled and bewildered’ as Fingal rules application to boost passenger cap invalid

    Dublin Airport sees 33.3 million passengers in 2024 as DAA revenue soars to €1.1bn

    Fingal accused the DAA of being “misleading” in its application, which the airport operator branded a “bizarre flip-flop” as council planners had twice confirmed the validity of the application.

    Jacobs said “all options” were now on the table including legal action in the form of a High Court judicial review of the move by Fingal.

    Jacobs indicated a plan of action would be agreed within days.

    He also said that now was the time for the government to intervene and work to resolve the long-running issue.

    “I think they absolutely should act quickly, with a view to protecting jobs, with a view to protecting tourism,” Jacobs said.

    “They could issue a ministerial directive, and they could also look at primary legislation, there’s several things they could look at.”

    https://e.infogram.com/_/ZhD7gJvLyWeWUB9ORcVm?parent_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.businesspost.ie%2Farticle%2Fmajor-shift-leaders-finally-back-minister-to-solve-airport-cap-row%2F&src=embed#async_embed There was an error displaying this embed.

    The Business Post has established the departure of the Greens from government, and Ryan as transport minister, will mean a new approach will be pursued to engage closely with DAA.

    The change in tack comes after repeated calls from DAA and airlines for government intervention.

    Responding to the latest setback, a spokesman for Ryanair said: “Dublin Airport is key national infrastructure and should be treated as such; the important matter of the Dublin Airport traffic cap has been fumbling around between DAA and Fingal County Council for far too long, and the latest shambles regarding DAA’s recent ‘no-build’ application makes clear that government intervention is required.

    Sunday’s top stories

    Major shift: Leaders finally back political solution to Dublin Airport cap row

    Helen McEntee and Peter Burke in contention for enterprise as cabinet speculation mounts

    Employers invited to subsidise workers’ Leap cards in new trial

    Developer builds €200m ‘war chest’ to buy from landowners escaping land hoarding tax

    “Ryanair calls on the new Irish government to abolish the Dublin Airport traffic cap as its first initiative, which would lead to growth in traffic, connectivity, tourism, and jobs on the island of Ireland.”

    Hannah Walden, director of communications at Airlines for America, said Fingal’s move to invalidate the latest application was “another step in the wrong direction”.

    “Any outcome that results in a reduction of service is not only detrimental to the travellers, shippers and economies of both of our countries, it also has potential implications to the overall US-Ireland relationship. We urge them to reconsider this stance and to prioritise solutions that promote, rather than restrict, aviation growth and the benefits it brings,” Walden said.

    Dublin Airport is currently capped at 32 million passengers a year due to a 2007 planning condition related to the opening of Terminal 2.

    DAA applied for planning permission to permanently remove the cap in December 2023. It had hoped the ‘no-build’ application to increase to 36 million could provide a “short-term solution” to the cap.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,702 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Enjoy and crack out some biscuits too! I voted for the greens. , but I'm actually delighted they are gone... they are also ultimate nimbys like the rest of them... they don't support changing the planning system, which would massively speed up public transport delivery. Dublin a city of 1.5 million and they think a few bike lanes as the flagship infrastructure projects for the city of insane wealth generation and traffic bedlam is tolerable... good riddance!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,144 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    The fee needs to be accessible for the public.
    But so what if there is nonsense objections. Doesn't affect anything.
    The Wicklow objection is serious, I doubt it will be considered valid.

    I assume he intentionally sent a nonsense letter order to gain a right of appeal. (objectors can appeal a decision to ABP).

    The application needs to be process more efficiently. It should go straight to ABP. As it will be appealed anyway.
    But removing the cap entirely is not going to happen. It will be bump up to the current capacity limit, then increase again when it's further developed. The no-build application should have happened during covid.

    Infrastructure has an operational limits. Executives, developers, etc will take the piss with joe blogs if you let them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,702 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Infrastructure does have limits, but road and transport is a government issue... not a daa one...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    I would never vote green, but I admire Your openness.


    well said.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,096 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    @Idbatterim gent, thanks a lot. Finally there might be some movement on the issue. No biscuots, had a slice of toast with the cuppa 😜



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭dublin12367


    ”But so what if there is nonsense objections. Doesn't affect anything.” - “I assume he intentionally sent a nonsense letter order to gain a right of appeal. (objectors can appeal a decision to ABP).”


    I rest my case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,144 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Transport is a government issue via the department of transport, sure.
    But the airport is absolutely DAA's issue. Literally the reason they exist.

    An regardless of who is responsible, any given infrastructure still has a functional limit. A cap ensures that commercial operators upgrade the airport as required. There is no reason a cap ever needed to affect a single flight or operator.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,144 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I might be misunderstanding, but what is your case exactly? Sounds like you are have an issue with the ability for the public to appeal a decision. Which seems like change that only harms the public overall.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭dublin12367


    that someone can make a nonsense argument observation like above without a valid reason or concern just so they can ultimately appeal the decision for the sake of it.

    Those who submit genuine observations be it for or against, in good faith, I have no issue with that. If someone notices a local council made an actual error in coming to their decision and appeals to ABP I have no issue with that.


    Those who lodge observations in bad faith and appeal the decision without any meaningful reasons are a problem in Irish planning, the €20 fee facilitates them. It’s too easy. If that fee was increased it would wipe out a lot of the bogus observations and appeals in the planning system across the county not just in relation to Dublin airport.

    Starting to derail the thread by going down the planning road and for that I apologise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,702 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Is there a cap on numbers entering ikea or dudrum town centre ? Is there a cap on the m50 despite being chronically under capacity, as they refuse to provide reasonable public transport in problem ?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,144 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I see what you are saying, but you are making a bit of a leap from observation to appeal.
    Observation and appeals are very different.

    Where has anyone appealed a decision like this just for the sake of it?

    Those who lodge observations in bad faith and appeal the decision without any meaningful reasons are a problem in Irish planning, the €20 fee facilitates them. It’s too easy.

    €20 is only the cost for an observation. Appeals are not cheap. The fee to appeal to ABP here would be €3000 (or €1500 if no Environmental Impact). The chances of anyone spending thousands to appeal the decision without any meaningful reason is pretty slim.

    I really don't think the spurious appeals you say are a problem, actually exist to any degree. And if any do happen, then a €300 observation costs won't have prevented it.

    I think this observation was just a repeat of a observation on the main application. I would assume his interest is genuine and in good faith But is not wasting his time at this stage putting effort in an observation that FCC will ignore and do that they intend to do.



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