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Senior ministers concerned about effects of Occupied Territories Bill.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,199 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Indeed they did have an airport (built, of course, with foreign money, even though Hamas leaders are millionaires, as are/were many of the PA top guys also.) It was blown up by Israel during one or other of the Intifadas because it was being used to bring in arms and explosives for attacks on Israelis.

    Gaza could, at the very least, have been a thriving tourist attraction for Saudis and other Muslims who want a Meditarranean lifestyle without the "decadence" of the west. Instead they used all that aid in a doomed attempt to destroy Israel.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Miniegg


    No tears here buddy, just a see someone tying themselves up in knots without one single cogent argument that makes sense outside of, what I only deduce, is a hatred of Islam and the people who practice it.

    As for your antisemitism baseless claims - I haven't seen a single poster on here disparaging Jewish people the way you do Muslims, or extrapolating extreme Jewish terrorism and fanaticism out amongst general Jewish population of this world who, like muslims, are just trying to live their lives.

    There is a western democracy, backed by the leaders of the west, currently committing genocide which most people in this country are appalled by and rightly so, yet your whole reason for being on this thread is to get people to stop talking about it. You are far from the knight in shining armour you seem to think you are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    The airport didn't last very long.

    Electricity was cut off for on average 7 hours a day since 2007. How would tourism have thrived exactly?

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Miniegg


    Ah don't let your facts get in the way of their story



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Joe1919


    It would probably be a good idea to put this Occupied Territories Bill into review for another while so that people can realize the full implications and cost involved. Sometimes politicians/people try to push through ideas/legislation/amendments without full discussion/understanding as was the case with the last referendum which was rejected.

    I expect the people I vote for to put me and my family and the greater Irish people's interest always first.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Yeah people really should read up on the impacts of the Blockade (2007 to present)

    For example

    In Gaza, the blockade caused unemployment to skyrocket to 85%.

    The World Bank estimated in 2015 that the GDP losses caused by the blockade since 2007 was above 50%, and entailed large welfare losses. Gaza's manufacturing sector, once significant, shrunk by as much as 60% in real terms, due to the wars in the past 20 years and the blockade. Gaza's exports virtually disappeared since the imposition of the 2007 blockade.

    In May 2015, the World Bank reported that the Gaza economy was on the "verge of collapse". 40% of Gaza's population lived in poverty, even though around 80% received some sort of aid. 

    Blockade of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

    The Norwegian Refugee Council report issued in 2018 called the territory "the world's largest open-air prison", highlighting in it several figures, including lack of access to clean water, to reliable electrical supply, to health care, food and employment opportunities. It lamented the fact that a majority of Palestinian children in Gaza suffer from psychological trauma, and a portion of which suffer from stunted growth.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,461 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Terrible. What does shooting ourselves in the foot do to help people in Gaza?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,242 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    it doesn’t help Gaza. But it will make us feel all warm n fuzzy pretending we care!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Well it seems to have a lot of you materialist types and Israel very agitated.

    I don't believe you when you say "Terrible" by the way.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Joe1919


    Whats another year I suppose. I dont think there is a time limit or anything like that as far as I know. The more mature reflection the better. We dont want to end up on the wrong side of history.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,098 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    Some people care, others don't, that is the truth. Same with actions against South Africa during Apartheid. It wasn't of economic benefit to go against South Africa during that time but it was worthwhile in the end.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,695 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Stop being obtuse. The bill is a non-violent method of taking action against Israeli occupation of areas outside its internationally recognised borders. Why do you have a problem with it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,066 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    What do you think?

    I didn't ask about the Israelis as we all know what they think. What about the Israeli Genocide? If you don't agree with it then why are you backing it and making excuses for it all the time?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,066 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Hamas are inhuman and so is Israel who try to hold the high moral groups but have failed miserably and have been called out for it by almost every Aid Agency in the world and whose War Criminals have also been called out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,709 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Some people care about the livelihoods of people living in Ireland, some people don't. Is that what you are saying?

    Some people care about what the Taliban and the other regimes like Hamas who follow them are doing to their female population and some don't. Is that what you are saying?

    This pretence that it is only the people who are outraged about Gaza who are the only ones who care has got to end, it is untrue, it is a lie, and it insults others on this thread, and as a result, the thread descends into petty bickering.

    There are no truths.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,709 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    There is a mature and reflective way to consider this question.

    Will it change Israeli behaviour? If the answer is no, it is virtue-signalling for at best no reason, and at worst, damage to Ireland.

    Will it change the outcome in Gaza? If the answer is no, it is virtue-signalling for at best no reason, and at worst, damage to Ireland.

    If the answer to either of the above questions is yes, it will definitely change the outcome, then the secondary question is whether it will harm Irish interests. If the answer to that is yes (and in my opinion it most definitely is yes), then the final question is whether the degree of harm to Irish interests is less significant than the change to the outcome. If not, we are engaged in a process of self-harm to little gain. Hardly rational.

    So, if it could be shown that the OTB would cause a definitive and significant change in the Israeli position that would affect the outcome for the people of Gaza at little or no harm to Ireland, then it is worthy of consideration. If not, it is little more than virtue-signalling at best, and significantly self-damaging at worst.

    While I understand the emotional response underpinning many of the posts on this thread, our politicians aren't elected to act on emotion, they are elected to do their best for the people of Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 650 ✭✭✭harryharry25


    In my view FF and FG have no intention of enacting this bill. They know what side the public are on here, so came up with the lies about new AG advice and if they are in the next Govt it will be passed.

    It wont be passed by a FF/FG led Govt

    Very cynical stuff to basically lie to the public just so they wouldn't lose any votes, but it's to be expected



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,709 ✭✭✭✭blanch152




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 650 ✭✭✭harryharry25


    If that was the case, why did FG and FF lie to the public saying they were going to get this done in the new Govt if they were part of it?

    No doubt they will get new AG advice and they will announce they are reviewing the situation. Nobody will ever see this AG advice though



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,066 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    The wrong side of history?? Were those who condemned the Holocaust on the wrong side of history too?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,998 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I think you are right. Very cynical but that's FFG for you. Exact same for the public sector standards reform bill. It was urgent at the time but there is no corruption or waste anymore...

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,709 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Were the leaders of Ireland who stood idly by while the Germans burned the Jews on the wrong side of history?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,695 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    A set of false dichotomies. Passing the bill would affect Israel in a small way directly, but in macrocosm set an example internationally of how to deal with it within existing political structures. Take for example recognising Palestine as a soverign state - from one country recognising it (the 1st non arab state-India -in 1974) to todays total of 146 (out of a world total of 193 recognised states).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,066 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Well seeing as nobody seemed to know what was happening at the time until around June 1942 I doubt it. My mother often spoke about it as she had two brothers who fought in the BA and they had never mentioned it in their letters. I don't know what the Govt knew or didn't know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Miniegg


    I regret that Irelands leaders didnt put far more political pressure on the Nazis to cease committing genocide once they discovered what was going on (i.e. applied pressure in whatever way they could without revoking Irish military neutrality).

    What do you think?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,709 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Our military neutrality is a joke, we should have been in the war with the Allies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,709 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Oh, so you are happy that we only stood idly by for three years instead of the full six, fair enough. Your position is well clear at this point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,098 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    Some people care what is happening in Palestine and others don't. There is of course the truth. People can support this bill and still care about people in Ireland.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Miniegg


    So... When genocide is being carried out, you don't want us to put political pressure on the country doing it, because we might lose jobs (as you have said previously).

    But you are saying we should instead go to war with that country, risking Irish lives.

    Strange pov tbh. Also I know you think our politicians have enough to be doing here without concerning themselves with wars in foreign countries, that was your stance a few posts back, does that not apply to the politicians back in the 1940s?



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