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Dynamic Pricing Tariffs

13567

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭10-10-20


    If you're playing the long-game and have sufficient battery storage then you're more likely to out-ride any temporary fluctuations.

    Or even just trying to avoid any import around the 08:00 to 10:00 and 16:00 to 20:00 high-tariff windows, then you should do better than any consumer package tariff rates.

    On the price-caps, I may have been wrong there as I don't see wholesale or consumer caps now that I look again, but at the end of the day Texas was a basket-case as they had an insular approach and an isolated grid & market; but that's not the subject of this discussion.

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    I'll look again, I was sure the document said about price caps, I think it was 50c for the variable rate.

    Doing the automation for it will take a while to get right. Couple of ideas, most of the cheap rates are overnight and generally in a block, and thus pick the x number of intervals you need to charge.

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,736 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Texas has learnt their lesson. Since then they have been on a race installing wind, PV and battery at break-neck speeds and they are now more renewable than California. Who'd have thought that about the oil red neck state?

    Post edited by graememk on

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    But not the standing charge or the base unit rate. Be interesting to see what the prices will be like

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Yes but since battery storage is quite expensive, last I checked it was about €1k/kWh, you would have a long payback period

    Post edited by graememk on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,736 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    You can get 15kWh cells plus a BMS delivered to your door from a reputable EU company for not much more than €1k incl. VAT and shipping. Pretty much all of us in here with powerful inverters already have or are planning to install more battery. My own home battery is 80kWh

    If the usable capacity of this addition is 90% and you can fill it once a day and your charge and discharge losses are 20% and you are with Pinergy, then it makes €788 per year. Or a pay back period of a bit over 15 months

    Calculation: 365 days * 15kWh capacity * 90% usable * 80% efficiency * (€0.25 FIT - €0.05 cost) = €788

    Post edited by graememk on

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,567 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Just to double check, the dynamic tariff currently covers import only, not export?

    For example the market price today at peak times is up to 29c/kWh, however I would just receive the FIT from my supplier if I exported during that time?

    I had to roll my eyes when I saw the standing charge would still be included. No doubt it'll be similar to the regular tariffs at several hundred per year (think Flogas is around €300 currently)

    The whole excuse from suppliers was that it covered market fluctuations and network costs. However since those are basically filtered out then it'll be plain to see they're charging a few hundred per year for all the hard work sending you a bill 😤

    Post edited by graememk on

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭SD_DRACULA


    Wrong (depending on your export) I got two packs of 16kwh that paid for themselves already using FIT over the course of 2024 so just export as much as you can. DIY packs of course, not the nonsense prices for off the shelf stuff ofc but even those are coming down these days

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Currently only import,

    As for standing charge, as a high user it's suits me to have one if it enables a lower unit rate (or unit base rate).

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    Yeah, DIY is the way to go for absolute profit - but as you say, even off the shell battery prices have never been cheaper than they are now. I'll guess probably 30% cheaper than when I bought my 8.5Kwh back in 2021. I did some investigation and it's estimated to come down a little more, but not much (5% or so in 2025) and then plateau out. Course that's all speculation.

    Depends on the quote/capacity/FIT rates, but I'll ballpark that most off-the-shelf would probably pay for themselves in 2-3 years.

    As for the dynamic pricing itself - I'm very very curious to see what algorithm I can develop myself to cycle the BEJASUS out of my storage :-)

    Post edited by graememk on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭SD_DRACULA


    Yeah that's what I'm not picturing right now, we'll need to poll some sort off api to get those sweet hours to hammer the EV and batteries for max gains. And if this has to come from the suppliers, good luck to us all with those chumps.

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    For batteries Can get 16kWh for 933 delivered

    https://eu.nkon.nl/envision-hc-l315a-3-2v-315ah-1008wh.html

    If want to buy a prebuilt box and bms that comes to 450 delivered. €1383 total for 16kWh, €86.5/kWh

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,736 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Boxes don't pay for themselves (read: unkel says they are a waste of money). But you can get a JK BMS for about €60 so that means a 16kWh battery pack fully made up for under a grand. Amazing stuff and as I showed, payback time 15 months currently on Pinergy if you can fully cycle it once a day. That is a return on investment of 80%. Can't think of anything else with such an incredible, risk free and tax free return 😁

    Post edited by graememk on

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭SD_DRACULA


    Boxes do pay for themselves (technically) as they keep the temps of the cells up and in turn that saves you kwh since they don't like the cold, but there is always the ghetto plywood option.

    They also add compression which will make the cells last longer and keeps the swelling down.

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,736 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Clutching at straws much? 😂 If you are smart, you have the battery and inverter in a room that needs heating and is insulated. All the waste heat from inverter losses and batteries is then useful instead of wasted. That's what I have, it is heating my garden room. Then it matters nothing whether you have a box or not.

    You do not need compression either. It is useless on most batteries except the weaker EVE type cells and might increase their longevity from 40 years to 50 years. Do you really need that 😂 Complete waste of time and money to compress them…

    Post edited by graememk on

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Well yes it you can DIY the job it's obviously gonna be cheaper, discounting the cost of the education you received to gain such knowledge of course 😁

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    To the letter of the logic it should cover export because if you export between 5-7pm it's worth more than exporting at 1pm

    Standing charges should also be lower for exporters using the same logic but given the introduction of FIT was akin to pulling teeth it's unlikely to ever happen

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭SD_DRACULA


    Absolutely not true and noticed by myself, the nkon cells I had got a little "fatter" when they were just sitting uncompressed in a wood box, after only 1 year (but not like they come in a perfect shape when B grade anyway) but it is noticeable for sure.

    The compression helps with making sure no extra gases get stuck in the cells, there is a video that Andy shared I think, and it only works if the cells are brand new as after the first few cycles the gas gets stuck in there for good. (so useless to do for B grade)

    And yeah all the heat is not wasted, is heating up my insulated workshop/gym just fine especially these days 😁

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,736 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    So what of what I was saying was "absolutely" not true? Of course the weak EVE type cells swell a little and have a shorter lifetime if you don't compress them for the first few cycles. But in real terms it means they last a bit less, but less than what? Even without compression they last way longer than you will actually use them in real life. A bit like a washing machine. It might technically last 30 years, but you will likely replace it far earlier with a better more economical one that uses more modern techniques.

    My point is: do not spend a cent on anything other than batteries, it does not add anything to payback time. But your moneys, if you want to spend more to fancy it up, by all means do so. But knowing it is just decorations. Let's face it: the only reason we buy batteries in the first place is for them to make us money. Use them to the max.

    Post edited by graememk on

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭SD_DRACULA


    The manufacturers clearly state compression is required on the spec sheet usually, it works without it of course but is just not optimal (only applies to new cells/A grade anyway)

    I agree with the fact that most will replace them before that becomes an issue alright. The only other thing that swelling can do is put tension on the busbars/studs if they expand too much, even with the "flexible" bus bars so that comes under extra safety.

    Post edited by graememk on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭irishchris


    Mine ran out over a year ago but continued on the plan on a month to month basis which opens up the opportunity to jump to better plan elsewhere if it comes around. But as is now have no intention of leaving pinergy

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,736 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Excellent. But I guess if you're not under contract they can stop that at any time. I would be tempted to sign up again for 2 years.

    Post edited by graememk on

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    What would you call a "powerful inverter"?
    I have a 10kW Three Phase Solis hybrid inverter with a 7.2kW array and a 5kW Weco battery, I've generated 10.2kWh so far today and exported 7.65kWh of it.
    Would more batteries make sense? Im with energia on ev tariff and charge the weco overnight. (however its fully discharged pretty quickly in the morning!)

    Does more batteries make sense in my case? Also, while generating during the day, should I charge the battery rather than export? Seems like that would be better financially?

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭10-10-20


    In my opinion and in the context of dynamic pricing, you would probably want to have around 1.5 to 2 times the nominal daily consumption in capacity. Others would say more. That sizing factor gives you flexibility to stretch beyond the 24hr period should there be an unforseen day where the units end up being high on average across the day. That's the mularky really - playing the system for what it's worth.

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭randombar


    Just on this equation for anyone with a standard 12kva connection and the limited ev windows I'm guessing the max battery recommended should be 40kWh. 12kw * 3 hrs.

    That's not taking into account EV charging, heat pumps, house load etc or speed of charge of inverter.

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    Your array appears undersized, depending on the Inverter voltage you should be looking at 15kwp of panels. That's where I'd start first, then sell your battery and look on the Battery DIY thread where you can almost treble your storage for ~ €1k.

    Post edited by graememk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,736 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Agree with @slave1 - panels, panels, panels everywhere first, provided you can get that done for reasonable money. Battery prices are coming down and it is fairly easy to add more batteries to an existing setup later

    Post edited by graememk on

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I have 13 panels at the moment and the roof is pretty full, its a new install on effectively a new build that we have just moved into, so perhaps the array numbers are actually incorrect. I have followed up with the installer to get the actual details.

    When you said "depending on the inverter voltage" do you mean the specs or what its actually using in use?
    Below are the specs, right now its at 417V for the one array (3 others unused)

    image.png
    Post edited by graememk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭10-10-20


    I'm confused as to why they sized it with 7.2kW on the roof and a 10kW inverter (under the NC7 scheme?) and then only a 5kWh battery. Was that their spec or did you specify the sizing or what was there a requirement for that config, or is it to allow future expansion?

    Usually you oversize the PV in respect of the inverter's output to maximise the solar gain during Winter, so for example you might put an extra 20% of PV over the inverter's output, 7kW of PV on a 5kW inverter, for example.

    https://energyhero.ie/dc-over-sizing-pv-solar-in-ireland/

    Post edited by graememk on


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    3 phase allows for 11kW (cant remember the amps off the top of my head) on the nc6

    Post edited by graememk on


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